On 28 Mar 2008, at 10:02, Hannes Magnusson wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Philip Olson <philip@roshambo.org>  
> wrote:
>> On 28 Mar 2008, at 04:23, Hannes Magnusson wrote:
>>> We've been waiting now for over 3months to push out new builds..
>>> I would really really like to push out new builds on weekly basis as
>>> of next Friday.
>>
>> For the longest time your opinion was to push out the builds when PHP
>> 5.3 was released. Not sure what happened three months ago but
>> regardless yes, it's a problem that we aren't building. However, I
>> don't think a strict timeline is doable but see below.
>
> 15days was to small window. Since I thought 5.3 was somewhere around
> the corner it sounded just as good as any other idea to roll the docs
> with 5.3. I however never got any feedback on that idea
> (http://php.markmail.org/message/ib2x6pwkz533a7gb) and 5.3 is nowhere
> near a release.
>
> I think we do need a strict timeline. Just see what happened with the
> loose timeline, "noone" is doing anything and documentation fixes
> since last November can't be pushed out because we are waiting for
> dead translations, which noone is working on, to build.

We are miscommunicating.

Several translations now build, some of which were updated in the last  
month or two. Others are catching up. It's a minority of total  
translations, but this is our reality.

>>> Unless anyone objects then here is my plan:
>>> All translations that do _not_ build by Friday will be _removed_
>>> from phpweb.
>>> All translations that _do_ build will be built and pushed out to
>>> mirrors.
>>
>> We're not quite there yet. I urge people to come up with ideas to  
>> help
>> smooth this process. One idea is to add an "Other" option in the
>> language select box that if selected opens a page explaining the
>> situation, including information on how to help translate and why so
>
> A good chunk of translation "requests" to phpdoc@ and php-webmaster@
> go unanswered and most of the translation lists are dead, you think we
> suddenly start to care because there is yet another page telling
> people to mail the lists?

This page is for both users of the PHP Manual as well as translators.  
Yes, people do care. It is to explain why [suddenly] 2/3 of the  
translations seemingly disappeared, and also offers yet another path  
for people to find themselves helping the PHP project. Writing such a  
page is worth it, doesn't hurt, I'll write it.

>> I think we can get all these to build by next Friday, mark the rest  
>> as
>> inactive in phpweb, as long as an idea like "Other" is implemented.
>
> http://php.markmail.org/message/q3ezv3w5nd2a2asf
> Can we please start taking some actions rather then discuss these
> things to death again?

That all changed when the massive new reference structure started to  
gain steam which caused every translation to be outdated and no longer  
build. However, not sure why I seemingly disappeared from that  
thread... sorry everyone about that. But today we are speaking about  
taking action.

> All I want is to push out manual updates with regular intervals, not
> twice a year, and I want completely useless translations gone so they
> don't lie to our users with bogus or incomplete information.

Everyone here wants the manual to build at least weekly. Earlier today  
I proposed 11 translations for us to have online, whereas the rest go  
offline. Doing so means weekly builds again, starting a week from now.

>> seems like the perfect time. All translations should build so new
>> translators can work on them,
>
> I completely disagree. There is absolutely no point in wasting anyones
> time to get translations like Arabic to build.
> It hasn't built for years - and there hasn't been a commit there for
> even more years.
> That translation is completely dead, and wasting anyones time trying
> to get it to build is flat out wrong.
> It is without a doubt lot easier to start from scratch.
>
> Same applies to most of the other translations that haven't been
> touched for years.
> I dare you to try one file. Any file, any file at all. Here is one
> easy for you: phpdoc/en/language/functions.xml
> Now pick a translation. Any translation. Lets say Spanish. It has had
> some commits over the years and is in your semi-active-list.
> http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/phpdoc/en/language/functions.xml?r1=1.41&r2=1.69&view=patch

The idea is to focus on getting those 11 online this week, then only  
those 11 will be online via phpweb. Whether the others build or not  
does not affect this. Earlier when you wrote that translations should  
go online as soon as they build, I expressed my view that whether  
something builds should not be the factor there. A truly outdated  
translation may build but it's outdated and should be offline until  
proven otherwise. But if it builds, simply adding some text and typing  
'php configure.php' will let people know if their changes are okay...  
future translations that is...

> Do you honestly think its easier to update the file rather than  
> rewrite it?

I don't know, that's case-by-case and something for translators to  
decide.

Regards,
Philip