Re: Was. W.W. Scoggins the only witness at 10th and Patton who actually

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 11:42:06 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> On Saturday, February 27, 2021 at 6:57:39 AM UTC-8, Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon) wrote: 
> > On Friday, February 26, 2021 at 8:46:27 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: 
> > > On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 6:59:14 PM UTC-8, Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon) wrote: 
> > > > On Wednesday, February 24, 2021 at 9:18:28 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: 
> > > > > On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 6:39:37 AM UTC-8, Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon) wrote: 
> > > > > > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:04:45 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 6:24:56 AM UTC-8, John Corbett wrote: 
> > > > > > > > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 6:13:58 AM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: 
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:15:06 CUT
> > > > If they were on different trips, Oswald had to be on the earlier one 
> > > > because his landlady saw him at 1:00PM, and he was seen on Jefferson by 
> > > > Brewer about 1:30PM, and he was arrested at 1:50. He also had a transfer 
> > > > that McWatters punched for 1pm on his person, and McWatters identified 
> > > > that transfer as one he gave to the man who left the bus. That man would
> > > > be Oswald. Whaley puts him in his cab about 1:45 and Roberts puts him at
> > > > the rooming house at "about 1:00 PM". 
> > > > 
> > > > And, lest I forget, numerous witnesses and some physical evidence puts him 
> > > > at the scene or in the vicinity of the Tippit killing at 1:15PM. 
> > > > 
> > > > Unless of course all those people and more were colluding to frame Oswald 
> > > > because they are all hostile witnesses and already didn't like him, or 
> > > > something like that. 
> > > > 
> > > > I don't see how your argument(s) removes Oswald from the scene of the 
> > > > crime whatsoever. 
> > > >
> > > You didn't give this much thought. If Jones isn't on Oswald's bus, then 
> > > it was in fact Oswald who took McWatters' bus all the way to Oak Cliff, 
> > > getting there about 1:23, as I detail in "Only Oswald...." 
> > > 
> > > dcw 
> > That assumption doesn't hold water. You're ignoring the evidence I already 
> > spelled out above. 
> > 
> > 1. McWatters said he gave a transfer out on that trip to one man who got 
> > off the bus after only a few blocks. 
 
No obection? 
  
  
> > 
> > 2. When Oswald was arrested, he had that transfer. 

No objection?

> > 
> > 3. Bledsoe said Oswald was on the bus only a few blocks. 
 

No objection?

> > 
> > 4. Bledsoe and McWatters both allude to the same incident with someone 
> > coming to the bus door and saying the President was shot: (Bledsoe: 
> > "During that time someone made the statement that the President had 
> > been shot") (McWatters: "Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some 
> > gentleman in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to 
> > the bus and I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio 
> > in my car that the President has been--" I believe he used the 
> > word--"has been shot."). 

No objection to what I wrote?

> 
> McWatters said that Oswald (later, Jones) told him that the President had 
> been "shot in the temple". Jones said that not only did he not say that, 
> but that no one on the bus had said that. Jones was supposedly the person 
> whom McW mistook Oswald for. Doesn't hold water. 
    

We're talking about Bledsoe here. I see you're changing the subject to a 
contradiction between McWatters and Jones in their statements. You didn't 
address my point at all.

So was McWatters wrong about who said it or was it not said to McWatters 
ever?

Your argument is unclear. Choose one.

> 
> 
> > 
> > 5. Oswald admitted in custody he got off the bus and took a cab. This is 
> > noted in different LEO's memos for the record, working for different 
> > agencies. 
> 
> Faith-based "evidence". 
  

Sorry, no. Let me clue you in. Next time you're in court for a speeding 
ticket, try telling the judge that the law enforcement officers from three 
or four different agencies are all lying to frame you. Let me know how 
that goes. The judge may add years to your sentence for wasting his 
time.

It is your faith-based argument that they all lied to frame Oswald for 
taking a bus and then a cab, when taking either or both is not a crime. 
Meanwhile, it is your faith-based argument that they all colluded together 
to tighten the evidence around Oswald for the assassination by putting in 
their memos for the record that Oswald *denied* owning a rifle.

Your arguments make no sense.

> 
> > 
> > 6. Whaley puts him in his cab because of Oswald's ID bracelet. 
> > 
> 
> And puts those two jackets on him! Go, Whaley! 
  

Not an objection to what I wrote. Please note that whoever got into 
Whaley's cab the same objection would hold -- the passenger was probably 
not wearing two jackets. But someone got into Whaley's cab wearing a 
bracelet *identical to Oswald's* and someone went to the vicinity of 
Oswald's rooming house. So your argument not only eliminates Oswald, but 
everyone else -- and we know that's wrong.

Because Whaley noted the trip in his ride log.

Whaley's testimony concerning Oswald's bracelet: 
== QUOTE ==
Mr. BALL. Was there anything in particular about him beside his clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know, how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, you notice things like that.
...
Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it and tell me if you have ever seen it before.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street over to 500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks like this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that was the bracelet or not.
...
Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was riding in the car with you?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself. I made this one.
Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in them?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that.
Representative FORD. Did you notice anything unusual about it?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them.
Representative FORD. In other words, this was an unusual band?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you showed me.
Representative FORD. It is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds of wristbands?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I make watchbands like that.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall when you told, talked to the Dallas police officers that you told them that you had seen a heavy identification bracelet on this passenger's wrist?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I told them about the bracelet.
Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers, also?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I don't remember saying it was heavy because I wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it.
Mr. BALL. You described the bracelet?
Mr. WHALEY. I just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet.
== UNQUOTE ==

  
 
> 
> > 7. Roberts puts him rushing into the rooming house at about 1PM and 
> > leaving after a few minutes zipping up a jacket. 
> > 
> 
> More like 1:10pm. 

Elsewhere you eliminated Roberts seeing Oswald any time between 12:30 and 
1:30.

And nobody gives a hoot what you think anyway. You weren't the witness. 
Roberts was.

And Roberts did not say about 1:10pm. She said about one pm.


> 
> > 8. Numerous witnesses put Oswald at the scene of the Tippit shooting. 
> > 
> 
> Running down the alley and running down Jefferson, too, a bit earlier. 
> Nice!

You mean a bit later. How does this eliminate Oswald as the person they 
saw?

> 
> > 9. The hard evidence of the shells puts Oswald as Tippit's killer. 
> > 
> 
> Soft. 

Bullet shells are made of metal and thus are hard.  They retain their 
characteristics from the weapon that fired them and tests can link or 
eliminate particular shells to a particular weapon. The shells in evidence 
are linked to the revolver taken off Oswald to the exclusion of all other 
weapons in the world.

> 
> > You need to claim all these people (and others) are part of the frame-up 
> > of Oswald to make Oswald go all the way to Oak Cliff on McWatters bus. 
> > What evidence do you have that they all colluded in this way? 

You apparently have no evidence. You punted here.

And we can see above that is exactly what your are doing. McWatters, 
Jones, Bledsoe, Roberts, the bus transfer, the Davis girls, Whaley, the 
LEOs who interrogated Oswald, the shells, the experts who examined the 
shells, the witnesses who IDed Oswald in lineups... all part of a frameup 
of Oswald while they all conspired to frame an innocent man and left the 
guilty party on the street to perhaps kill other LEOs.

 
> > 
> > A bit fat nothing. 
> > 
> > Can you even get Oswald from the bus route in Oak Cliff to Jefferson and 
> > Brewer's shoe store in about seven minutes? What is the closest point to 
> > Brewer's shoe store along the bus route? What is the distance? 
> > 
> 
> I have him arriving at the rooming house about 1:11, the theater about 
> 1:35, allowing him time to duck out of sight of cop cars. 

You didn't answer any of the questions I asked. Earlier in this thread you have Oswald on the bus until about 1:23. How does he get to the rooming house at 1:10 then? 
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/vHtMMDoZ45Q/m/-XqACU9TAQAJ
== QUOTE ==
If Jones isn't on Oswald's bus, then it was in fact Oswald who took McWatters' bus all the way to Oak Cliff, getting there about 1:23, as I detail in "Only Oswald...."
== UNQUOTE ==

Your own argument here winds up putting Oswald and Jones on the same bus 
because, as you note, Oswald couldn't get to the rooming house by 1:10pm 
(YOUR own estimate) otherwise. And he couldn't get to the rooming house by 
1pm (Roberts estimate) unless he and Jones were on the same bus. Thank you 
for your reconstruction.

Roberts has him arriving at the rooming house about 1pm. Your estimate 
means nothing. Hers is evidence.

And even in your own reconstruction he still had to travel near the scene 
of the Tippit shooting, you just have him arriving getting there about 10 
minutes past the time of the shooting. How far apart are those points? You 
have him making the full trip in just 12 minutes -- even assuming no 
stopover at the rooming house. If he does stop at the rooming house for 
Roberts "three or four minutes" estimate, that leaves no more than eight 
or nine minutes in your reconstruction to get to the theatre. Critics make 
a big deal of Oswald getting to 10th and Patton in 12 minutes. But your 
reconstruction has him going further in less time.

This is why critics don't typically put forward a reconstruction. It winds 
up self-contradictory in too many places. And of course, they still have 
to accuse almost everyone involved as being part of the coverup in 
addition.

Hank