Re: Question for John McAdams

On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 2:51:18 PM UTC-5, John Corbett wrote:
> On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 8:19:14 AM UTC-5, ajohnstone wrote: 
> > >>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/12/minneapolis-city-council-unanimously-votes-to-replace-police-with-community-led-model/?sh=736afcf71a52 
> > 
> > Changing the manner in which a police department by replacing it with 
> > another law enforcement agency is not abolishing it. It is a reform. 
> >
> I can't wait until this "Community Safety Work Group" confronts some armed 
> gang bangers.
> > It is not without precedent. 
> > 
> > Camden, New Jersey, disbanded its police department and replaced it with a 
> > new force. Camden went about reforming their police. In short, they fired 
> > everyone, dissolved the police union, expanded the police force with 
> > stricter hiring criteria, and rewrote the new department’s use of 
> > force policy. The net result was lower rates of crime and lower rates of 
> > civilian complaints about police behavior. 
> >
> I would be willing to bet this was done during a time crime rates were 
> dropping all over the country which would make Camden's lower crime rate 
> meaningless.

  I think you would be wise to be skeptical of this (as with any narrative 
a leftist tries to sell). I`ve been looking at various sources of 
information about crime in Camden, I hope you don`t mind me taking this 
opportunity in your post to present them.

  First, a few thoughts. They keep using 2012 as the start date for this 
program, even though it wasn`t implemented until 2013. The reason for this 
is because there were 67 murders in 2012 and 57 murders in 2013. You can 
see why they want to use the 2012 figures to show improvement. Another 
thing to consider is that with murders in cities with high drug crime, the 
murder rate is a function of whether the person who was being shot at was 
fatally hit. You can have more shootings, just less hitting.

  Another thing being touted is the 'lower rates of civilian complaints", 
which could easily be the result of police cams, which weren`t used 
widespread 8 years ago.  They likely have two effects, they make the cop 
behave as his actions are filmed and also the civilian can`t lie about 
what a cop did when the encounter is filmed, so they don`t bother making a 
complaint.

  That bit of critical thinking aside, here are some facts and data 
(mostly showing the claims that Camden has a lower crime rate to be a 
lie)...

  https://www.policearrests.com/new-jersey-arrest-records/camden/

  These charts (from 2016) tell a different story. And note *zero* arrests 
for murder in 2016.

  In 2014, Camden was the most dangerous city in the country...

  https://money.cnn.com/gallery/real_estate/2014/02/03/dangerous-cities/index.html

  And still today is the most dangerous city in New Jersey...

  https://www.roadsnacks.net/most-dangerous-cities-in-new-jersey/

  And ninth in the country...

  https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous

  Only a leftist would try to present this as some sort of success story.


> > You said "We need more police. They need more training," exactly what 
> > Camden did. 
> > 
> > https://www.aei.org/articles/dont-abolish-the-police-reform-them/ 
> > 
> > Ithaca, New York has begun enacting its own police reforms, and wants to 
> > rebrand the city’s police as the Department of Community Solutions 
> > and Public Safety.
> Isn't that special. Just give the cops a nice, new touchy-feely name and 
> that should solve all the problems.
> > Under the Ithaca proposal, the new police department 
> > will be made up of both armed and unarmed officers, with each responding 
> > to different types of calls — one for criminal activity and the 
> > other for social and mental health concerns where force, actual or 
> > potential, can do more harm than good.
> Many times a situation which isn't expected to be deadly turns out to be 
> one and unarmed law enforcement officers could end up in real danger. This 
> incident took place not far from where I live a few years ago and ended up 
> with two armed officers losing their lives. 
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/two-ohio-police-officers-killed-responding-911-hang-call-n846711 
> 
> Unarmed officers would be at even greater risk when these incidents turn 
> violent.
> > 
> > But, of course, some countries faced with endemic problems have taken 
> > drastic action such as abolishing its police forces and building anew. 
> > Georgia in the Caucasus mountains did so - successfully. 
> > 
> > https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/siezing-moment-rebuilding-georgias-police/ 
> > 
> > A useful interview about the inherent difficulties with American policing 
> > policies by an Israeli expert 
> > 
> > https://prospect.org/justice/expert-u.s.-police-training-use-deadly-force-woefully-inadequate/ 
> > 
> > The rest of your post is simply a rant, not worth responding to.
> The policies for the use of deadly force are well thought out and defined. 
> The reform that is needed is to hold cops accountable when they fail to 
> adhere to these policies. These incidents are the exceptions and not the 
> rule. Putting unarmed law enforcement officers on the streets to handle 
> potentially dangerous situations is a recipe for tragedy. Often situations 
> which aren't expected to become violent quickly turn that way and the cops 
> better be armed when that happens.