Re: Was. W.W. Scoggins the only witness at 10th and Patton who actually

On Tuesday, March 9, 2021 at 6:10:22 AM UTC-8, Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon) wrote:
> On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 4:44:46 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: 
> > On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 1:12:59 PM UTC-8, Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon) wrote: 
> > > On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 7:54:36 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: 
> > > > On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 6:59:17 PM UTC-8, Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon) wrote: 
> > > > > On Wednesday, February 24, 2021 at 9:18:28 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: 
> > > > > > On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 6:39:37 AM UTC-8, Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon) wrote: 
> > > > > > > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:04:45 PM UTC- CUT 
> > > > > cross-examination. Also called an adverse witness. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > == UNQUOTE == 
> > > > > 
> > > > > And since you're already at the point of admitting Oswald was on McWatters 
> > > > > bus, what's the point of doubting a woman who says she was on that bus and 
> > > > > recognized him from when he rented a room from her (and stiffed her for 
> > > > > the final week's rent he owed)? 
> > > > 
> > > > The authorities fallaciously placed Jones on the same bus with Oswald. 
> > > Repeating that argument doesn't make it a better one. 
> > > > (Jones relates that cops boarded & held up the bus for an hour. In all 
> > > > his extensive testimony, McW doesn't say one word about such an event. 
> > > > They were on different busses.) 
> > > Then why did Jones and McWatters relate roughly the same incident with the disbelieving woman? 
> > > Jones told the FBI: 
> > > https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2641.pdf 
> > > == QUOTE == 
> > > JONES estimated the bus was held up by the police officers for about one hour 
> > Let me interrupt your quotation here. Thank you--that first line confirms 
> > that Jones & McWatters were talking about two different bus trips. 
> > Nowhere did McWatters say anything like what Jones says here, re an 
> > hour-long detention of the bus by police.
> Hilarious. That's you're linchpin, and it's rusty. Time passes at 
> different rates depending on where you've got to go and whether you're in 
> a hurry or not. A 15-minute holdup in traffic may feel like an hour if 
> you're in a hurry to get home.

You seem to forget that Jones said the one-hour delay was caused by police 
officers holding the bus there.  McW nowhere mentioned cops boarding his 
bus.

 A 15-minute holdup may feel like five 
> minutes if you're not in a hurry. You've never noticed this either?
> > > and, after they were permitted to resume, they crossed the Marsalis 
> > > Bridge, where a woman, abaat forty to forty five years of age, boarded the 
> > > bus . She sat in the side seat immediately in front of him near the door 
> > > and the boa driver asked her whether she had heard that the President had 
> > > been shot . She replied that she had not heard anything in that regard, 
> > > and stated she did not believe it was true . The driver then pointed to 
> > > JONES and said, 'Ask him, he saw St ." JONES said the driver was smiling 
> > > at this time and the woman turned to him and he told her, "I don't know 
> > > anything about it . I just heard some others say that the President had 
> > > been shot .' He said that because of the expression on the woman's face 
> > > both he and the driver were smiling at the time, and she then said, "You 
> > > are both smiling, so I don't believe it ." 
> > > == UNQUOTE == 
> > >
> You ignored this. How did this same exchange occur to both McWatters and 
> Jones if they were on different buses?

As I noted in the lead post here, McW & Jones talked together several 
times between 11/22 and Jones' FBI interview.  Plenty of opportunity for 
McW's story to leak into Jones, & maybe vice versa.

> > > 
> > > McWatters told the Warren Commission in his testimony: 
> > > == QUOTE == 
> > > Mr. BALL - Didn't some lady say something? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - Well, yes, sir. 
> > > Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or 
> > Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing 
> > to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to 
> > catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she 
> > was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the other bus had done 
> > went into town, and I asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of 
> > the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and 
> > she was getting on, and I asked her had she heard the news of the 
> > President being shot, at the time that was all I knew about it, and she 
> > said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding me." 
> > 
> > > I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect." 
> > > And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time. 
> > > == UNQUOTE ==
> You ignored this. How did this same exchange occur to both McWatters and 
> Jones if they were on different buses?

How did McW miss the cops holding up his bus for an hour if they were on 
the same bus?


> > > 
> > > Beyond that, Jones himself puts himself on McWatters bus 
> > And in his statement to the FBI re the hour-long police delay takes 
> > himself right off it.
> Hilarious. Your argument is not evidence. Jones statement to the FBI is.

My argument IS Jones' statement re the cop delay.  That you feel free to 
ignore this elephant on the bus is pretty hilarious!

> > > , and McWatters puts Jones on his bus, so you're not just arguing with me, 
> > > you're back to disputing the witnesses. 
> > They're disputing each other.
> Nope. Both Jones and McWatters relate the same incident with the woman, and 
> both agree they saw each other on the bus on 11/22/63. And talked about it 
> a few days later when Jones got on McWatters bus again.

See above.


> > > And in fact, they talked about what transpired the day of the assassination 
> > > the next time Jones rode McWatters bus. 
> > > 
> > > Jones told the FBI: 
> > > == QUOTE == 
> > > He said that aa November 22, 1963, he attended the usual morning sessions of classes at high school and got out o school at about 11145 AM. He 88110 he walked to Elm Street near the Capri Theatre, where he waited far the KOrsalis bus, which arrived at approximately 12:10 or 12:15 PM. He said that, upon boarding the bus, he sat in the first seat facing forward on the curb aide of the bus and was alone . He recognized the driver by sight as one who frequently drove the bus at the time of day, but stated he did not know him by name. 
> > > ... 
> > > He said that, in conversation with this same bus driver on the following Monday, the driver told him the Dallas Police Department had him up until one o'clock on Saturday or Sunday morning questioning him about the passenger on his bus who looked like LEE HARVEY OSWALD . 
> > > == UNQUOTE == 
> > > 
> > > Meanwhile, McWatters said this, even naming Milton Jones as the teenager that he talked with: 
> > > == QUOTE == 
> > > Mr. BALL - The same teenager? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - The same teenager rode with me the next day. 
> > > Mr. BALL - And you noticed he got off there? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." And-- 
> > > Mr. BALL - Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. 
> > > Mr. BALL - That this same teenager got on your bus again? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, he got on. 
> > > Mr. BALL - And you noticed where you let him off? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir. 
> > > Mr. BALL - Is that the reason that today you remember he got off? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that-- 
> > > Mr. BALL - Has he been on your bus since? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - Yes. 
> > > Mr. BALL - He has? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - He has rode with me since. 
> > > Mr. BALL - Yes. I see. Did you give him a transfer that day? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off. 
> > > Mr. BALL - Do you know this boy's name? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - I believe his name is Milton Jones. 
> > > Mr. BALL - Milton Jones? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he told me he was 17. 
> > > Mr. BALL - Did he ever tell you where he works? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a day, I believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he never did state where he works. 
> > > Mr. BALL - Did he tell you where he went to school? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school. 
> > > Mr. BALL - Or where he worked? 
> > > Mr. McWATTERS - Where he worked, either one. 
> > > == UNQUOTE ==
> Your argument that they weren't on the same bus

Jones was on a bus boarded by cops.  Not McW's bus....


 fails because they talked 
> about all that transpired a few days later. They recognized each other.
> > > > It follows that they fallaciously placed 
> > > > Bledsoe on that bus. 
> > > This argument fails because the previous argument fails. It also fails because Bledsoe places herself on that bus and you're back to arguing with the witness. She said she recognized Oswald, she saw him get on, she observed he was on the bus for a few blocks, and she saw him get off shortly after he got on. 
> > Bledsoe's statements fail because Jones eliminated himself (see above) as 
> > the Oswald understudy who rode the bus to Oak Cliff.
> Jones says he was on the bus. McWatters says he was on the bus. Your 
> opinion of who was on the bus or not on the bus has no bearing on the 
> evidence in this case.
> > Takes Jones out of 
> > the equation (and Jones did),
> I disagree with your assessment. So does Jones. So does McWatters. Their 
> a ssessment carries more weight than yours. They were there, you were 
> not.

Well, actually, if you're talking about McW's bus, Jones wasn't there.

> > and Oswald does NOT get off the bus on Elm.
> Oswald admitted in custody he got off the bus and took a cab.

Not in the first interview, as reported by Hosty & Bookhout.


 McWatters 
> admitted he gave out one transfer to one male and one female passenger on 
> that trip. Bledsoe saw Oswald get on the bus and leave the bus a few 
> blocks later. The bus transfer found in his shirt pocket after his arrest 
> affirms that Oswald was on the bus. 
> 
> Both the cab driver (William Whaley) and Oswald (in custody) related the 
> same story about a woman coming up to the cab as Oswald got in, and Whaley 
> recognized the ID bracelet Oswald wore: 
> 

Ooh!  What en eagle eye that Whaley had.  He also "recognized" the TWO 
JACKETS which Oswald was wearing.  As you would say, Hilarious!

> == QUOTE == 

> Mr. WHALEY. Well, just moving. You know you catch any bright object, why you notice it, that is how I noticed it. He was just moving his hand around. When the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me to call her a cab. why he reached over to the door to open it like he told her she could have that one but she decided that she would wait for the next one because he already had that one. And that is when I saw it, sir. In the picture, I believe, I don't think he had it on in that picture in the paper the next morning.
> Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was riding in the car with you? 
> Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself. I made this one.
> == UNQUOTE == 
> 
> Oswald's admission is in this memo by James Bookhout: 

From an unrecorded interview.  And the latter doesn't jibe with the 
Hosty-Bookhout report re the first interview.


> https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0323a.htm
> > He takes it to Oak Cliff. Like Jones, Bledsoe was apparently roped into 
> > the McWatters-Oswald story under false pretenses, or through valid 
> > confusion.
> According to you, if he took the bus to Oak Cliff, he couldn't get there 
> before 12:23.

What?

 Yet you also suggest he may have gone in the rooming house 
> at 1:10 or 1:11. Which is it? It can't be both, and if he got to the 
> rooming house at 1:10, he must have taken Whaley's cab to get there. 
> 

Huh??

> Your arguments contradict each other.

Your last "argument" makes no sense.

dcw