3rd post - last portion of transcript with Elon Musk

Starlink, Geopolitical Power, and the War in Ukraine
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, the singularity approaching. Let’s go back 
more immediately to the here and now. We’ve talked about concentration 
of control in your companies. You’ve made a very good case for why you 
should have it. You also have, through Starlink, incredible geopolitical 
power. I mean, I’m one of your customers. Excellent product. But without 
them, the Ukrainians would have been in serious, serious trouble. And 
when you—

Elon Musk: Yes, the Ukrainian government has publicly thanked Starlink 
many times for being instrumental in defending Ukraine.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And you recently decided to prevent the Russians 
in the occupied territories from having access to Starlink.

Elon Musk: Well, no, we were never at any point selling Starlink to 
Russians.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But they were grabbing it, right? They were using 
it. You’ve now stopped them from doing that.

Elon Musk: Well, they essentially got Starlink units that they ordered 
through Ukraine and then smuggled them into Eastern Ukraine where the 
Russians are, and were then using them in some cases for attacks. Now, 
in order to address this, we worked with the Ukrainian government to 
create a whitelist of approved Starlink terminals. Now, this has some 
downsides because a whole bunch of people who were just innocent users 
of Starlink and just trying to access the internet for work or for 
education now don’t have Starlink.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: These are geopolitical decisions of consequence. 
How do you feel about having that power? You could determine the outcome 
of wars. How does that feel? And is it right that you should have that 
power?

Elon Musk: Well, I’m not sure we’re determining the ultimate outcome of 
the war in Ukraine. I do hope that there’s some sort of peace agreement 
reached soon, because for 2 or 3 years now, the border has barely moved, 
and every day there are lots of people dying at the front line. I think 
there’s a lot of wishful thinking here of people saying, “Well, Russia 
should completely withdraw,” etc., but this is not realistic.

I really think there needs to be a peace that is pragmatic about this. 
What I think would be terrible is if there’s another 3 years of people 
dying senselessly at the front lines. You have to say, “How do you 
explain to the children of the men that are dying at the front lines?” 
On the Russian side too, by the way, they’re being conscripted and sent 
there.

I am quite offended by fancy diplomats who have 7-course dinners in 
luxurious places while people are dying at the front lines, and who 
pontificate about how Russia should withdraw, but they’re not going to. 
Russia’s not going to withdraw. So there really needs to be an accepted 
peace along those lines.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And do you think it’s your responsibility to play 
a role in tipping the scales towards what you see as the right way to peace?

Elon Musk: I’ve been advocating peace for a long time. I posted a few 
years ago that there really needs to be some concession here to Russia. 
This is not me being pro-Russia, I’m just being pragmatic, or people 
will die for years with nothing achieved. And that is exactly what happened.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I don’t know, I mean, the Ukrainians are doing 
pretty well right now with their incredible drone capacity hitting 
inside Russia. And the general consensus is that the balance of the war 
is shifting. But my point is not so much about what’s right—

Elon Musk: Ukraine is not going to retake those territories. It is not 
going to happen.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: My interest is really on whether you think, given 
that you have through Starlink an incredible power, whether it’s 
appropriate that you should wield it. That’s quite rare that an 
individual actor has such power by turning on and off a capability to 
shape conflict.

Elon Musk: Well, is there something you think I should do differently?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I mean, I think you were right to support Ukraine. 
I think that, as it won’t surprise you, I think that the Russian 
aggression was, for many, many reasons, an appalling aggression. And I 
think that that was an important thing that you did.

Elon Musk: Yeah. I mean, I did a very deep dive into the background of 
that conflict to understand exactly what was going on. And I’m reminded 
of the old adage that there are no angels in war.

DOGE, Domestic Politics, and the Role of Government
Zanny Minton Beddoes: It’s a similar tone, I think, about domestic 
politics where you’ve played a big role domestically, politically here. 
You spent a lot of money on Donald Trump’s reelection. After the 
election, you got very actively involved, through Doge, you tried to cut 
a lot of spending, reshape the government. How do you feel that it 
wasn’t hugely successful in the sense that there wasn’t nearly as much 
spending cut as you tried? As you look back on that, do you regret 
getting so involved in politics? Do you think it was a good thing to do?

Elon Musk: I think I got a little too involved in politics, got carried 
away, frankly. The goal with the Doge stuff was to try to do something 
about the deficit, which is massive, where the interest payments exceed 
the amount of money spent on the Department of War. Basically, if you 
add up all the money spent on what is now the Department of War and 
intelligence in the US, that is smaller than the interest payments on 
the debt.

So I thought, well, we need to take a close look at spending and make 
sure that money is being spent in sensible ways and that it is not 
wasted or spent on fraudulent activities. And I got a lot of flak for 
this, obviously.

But people don’t understand just how simple it was for the Doge team to 
approve payments. We literally just asked to have the contact 
information of the recipient, or some evidence that money was going to 
its intended purpose. But over and over, we were told, oh, we need to 
wire money for some sort of important cause in Africa. And we’re like, 
okay, but the wiring instructions are to Deloitte Touche in Washington, 
D.C., not to Africa. So we would like to send the money to Africa. Can 
you please connect us with the recipients so we can send them the money 
directly? And then we get silence.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We don’t need to relitigate DOGE. I have no doubt 
that there’s a lot of waste in the US government.

Elon Musk: I think probably much worse than anyone could possibly imagine.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think it is a fair criticism that the way 
you shut down a whole bunch of programs probably, in fact, certainly 
caused unnecessary suffering. I mean, no— you don’t buy that at all?

Elon Musk: It caused a lot of complaining.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You don’t buy the idea that anybody— to put it 
really crudely and simply— any kid in Africa died because of the 
suddenness with which—

Elon Musk: Zero.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I just don’t think that’s right. I mean, I’ve had 
people reporting in Africa who—

Elon Musk: How many NGOs are there that could step in? Bear in mind, it 
happened quickly. And there are literally tens of thousands of NGOs.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Not everyone functions as fast as you do. If 
funding is cut off for antiretrovirals overnight and it just stops, then 
people will die when they don’t have access to them. And it just—

Elon Musk: No, only if they cannot get funding for that. But the Gates 
Foundation has $50 billion. What about them? What about any one of a 
number of organizations? What about MacKenzie Bezos? She gave away $50 
billion. What about that?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Let’s be practical. In many of these countries, 
USAID was the biggest funder. But I don’t want to have a conversation 
about this.

Elon Musk: USAID was a political organization.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: It may also have been that, but it was the biggest 
funder of healthcare systems. It was a very strong funder of regime 
change. And there may well be benefits from having changed—

Elon Musk: Also, USAID funding was not stopped. It was moved to the 
State Department.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: It was stopped. There were huge numbers of things 
shut down in Africa that were—

Elon Musk: No, there were claims of this. These claims are false. 
They’re nonsense and absolute nonsense. When funding is stopped for 
fraudulent organizations, do you think they’re going to say, “Please 
keep funding the fraud”? Or do you think they’re going to come up with a 
sad story that sounds sympathetic in order to get the funding restored? 
Obviously, it will be the latter. And that’s exactly what they did. But 
zero died because of that.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: That’s what I would take issue with. I actually 
have a lot of sympathy for the change of the aid regime that the US 
under the Trump administration has precipitated. However, I think the 
pace and the suddenness with which it happened will almost certainly 
have caused unnecessary suffering and deaths. And I think both of those 
can be true.

Elon Musk: No, I think that’s totally false.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Okay, well, let’s—

Elon Musk: And obviously false because the amount of funding we’re 
talking about is far less than what can be supported via foundations 
like the Gates Foundation or MacKenzie Bezos’s foundation. She’s given 
away tens of billions of dollars. The Gates Foundation has tens of 
billions of dollars. They are capable of acting very quickly. And if 
they didn’t, I would say they’re equally responsible.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I see.

Elon Musk: Okay. Obviously.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: All right. Fair point.

Elon Musk: Zero people died because of drugs.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I hear you loud and clear. Zero. I hear you loud 
and clear.

Elon Musk: Obviously.

Stepping Back from DOGE and Views on the Trump Administration
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Domestically, you stepped away from DOGE. It was 
hard to do what you were trying to do, as you’ve just explained. But 
this administration has gone in directions that I suspect you were not 
expecting two and a half years ago.

Elon Musk: The war on Iran. I’m not going to agree with everything any 
administration does.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Are you disappointed by this administration?

Elon Musk: No, I think this administration, on balance, is excellent. No 
administration is perfect, but it’s vastly better than the alternative.

Europe, Immigration, and Free Speech
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Can we talk about Europe, a place that you are 
very, very focused on?

Elon Musk: I’m not that focused on Europe.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think judging by your posts, you’re pretty 
concerned about Europe. You support—

Elon Musk: I mean, once in a while I post something.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: It’s reasonably frequently, it’s not once in a 
while. But I’m genuinely interested in this as someone who lives in 
Europe, lives in London. You paint a picture— well, first of all, you 
support not just the populist right but the far right, in fact very 
fringe parties in some countries.

Elon Musk: No, I support the normal people. What do you call the far 
right falsely?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You think that is the normal person? Okay.

Elon Musk: Yes. Literally, you could go back 10 or 15 years, and these 
policies were completely normal. In fact, one of the things I think is 
funny is to take a speech from Obama and Hillary and then go to someone 
who is on what I call the lunatic left, and say, “What do you think of 
the speech by Trump?” And they’ll say, “Oh wow, he’s the worst person 
ever.” And then you say, “Actually, that was a speech by Obama,” or 
“Actually, that was a speech by Hillary.”

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I agree that the center of gravity in this country 
has shifted, certainly in the Democratic Party shifted to the left, but 
that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about people like Rupert Low.

Elon Musk: It’s actually just normal people. It’s just normal people. 
And here are the principles — tell me which of these sound terrible: 
that we should have secure borders, that we should have safe cities, 
that we should have sensible spending. Which of those three are 
far-right fringe? And I would like to admonish you and the media for the 
absurd characterization of the far right. It is false and misleading and 
nonsense. Please keep this part in.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We’ll keep all of this in. But let me—

Elon Musk: Don’t cut this part.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Let me push back on that. Because it is nonsense. 
Elon, you have close to 250 million followers on X. You say things like 
— and I’m quoting you — “Civil war in Britain is inevitable. Just a 
question.”

Elon Musk: Yes.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: When were you last in the UK?

Elon Musk: A few years ago.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Exactly. I live there. I’m there the whole time. 
That is nonsense.

Elon Musk: You live a cloistered existence.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, I don’t, actually. And the numbers also 
disprove what you say. All the numbers about crime — London is a much 
safer city than any city in the United States. Violent crime in the UK 
is not where you think it is. In fact, it’s coming down. You have 
painted, and because you have so many followers, so many Americans 
believe it, a kind of view that Europe and the UK are overrun with 
terrifying Muslim immigrants. There’s rape on every corner. There’s a 
sort of civilizational destruction.

Elon Musk: I haven’t said any of those things.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, you said civil war in Britain is inevitable.

Elon Musk: And yes, if current trends continue, it is.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Why?

Elon Musk: Well, if you have a large and growing, rapidly growing, group 
of people whose beliefs are antithetical to Western beliefs, at some 
point there will be a reckoning. They will try to implement their views, 
and those who oppose it will oppose it, and that’s what you call civil 
war. And obviously this is the trend. And you absolutely do live in a 
cloistered existence. And if you’d like, we can go on a tour of Britain.

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Zanny Minton Beddoes: Sure, I’m very happy to come on a tour of Britain. 
You come see my country that I live in all the time and that you haven’t 
been to in a few years.

Elon Musk: I’ve been there literally 100 times.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But when was the last time?

Elon Musk: A few years ago.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You know why this exercises me? Because you have 
really shaped opinion about the UK. So many Americans I come across will 
say — and I just had one the other day — “Oh, London’s such a dangerous 
place. How can you live there? There are grooming gangs everywhere. 
There’s violence everywhere.” This is a picture that people get from 
things that you post or that are posted on X.

For example, your posting for 48 hours of Citizen Vigilante, that film 
which paints a dystopian— I’ve watched it. I watched it yesterday. It’s 
not a very good movie, but it also paints a dystopian picture of Europe, 
and it glorifies vigilante violence. It glorifies the murdering of a 
Muslim immigrant family. I honestly think that it is irresponsible for 
you to put that up on X.

Elon Musk: I think it’s a movie and it’s worth watching.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You’re clearly suggesting Europe is a dystopian 
place and you—

Elon Musk: Yes. I mean, why aren’t you doing more to fight censorship in 
Europe? I seem to be doing nothing to fight censorship in Europe.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: That’s not true.

Elon Musk: There are people in prison in the UK for social media posts. 
Do you think that’s appropriate?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No. And we’ve written editorials against it.

Elon Musk: Okay, great.

Europe, Immigration, and Media Trust
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Then that’s the sort of thing that I think is bad. 
And I think if you— And I agree with you, but I don’t think you have to 
glorify vigilante violence and kind of post the things that you are 
doing and paint an entirely inaccurate picture of Europe.

Elon Musk: I don’t think it is.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We should do a tour of the UK.

Elon Musk: Yes. And one of Brussels too.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Because the UK has actually been very good at 
integrating immigrants. The UK is very effective at doing that. There 
are problems. I’m the first to admit that there are problems.

Elon Musk: Yes, there are major problems.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: There are problems, but it is not— it really is 
not what you are describing to or suggesting to your 240 million followers.

Elon Musk: I think it is.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And I think there’s a problem.

Elon Musk: No, I think I’m spot on.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, we’ll have to—

Elon Musk: And that’s why you have freedom of speech, or at least—

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, freedom of speech allows people to say 
things that are wrong, but your point is not that. You’re not just 
saying I have every right to say what I want. You’re saying you know, I 
am right about Europe, and I really don’t think you are.

Elon Musk: I think I am.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think you will find that most people in Europe, 
or many people in Europe, don’t think you’re right about it. But let’s 
come to that because the media keeps ignoring what’s—

Elon Musk: —ignoring reality.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I don’t think that’s true either. I really—

Elon Musk: —and they’re programmed by the TV and conventional media.

Why Focus on Europe’s Problems?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why are you— this is, I guess, even to me sort 
of the bigger picture question— why do you focus on this? Why are you 
interested in it? Because on the one hand, we started this conversation 
and you described to me this extraordinarily transformative, amazing, 
sort of civilizational-changing stuff that’s happening in the next 10 
years. And yet you’re also an ongoing participant in the worst kind of 
tribalism, the cesspit of social media. How does that fit? They’re two 
very different views of the world.

Elon Musk: Yeah, I don’t think they’re inconsistent.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why do you do the latter one, the tribalism? I 
mean, people say that you’re a racist. People say that there are all 
kinds of things said about you which I’m sure you would disagree with. 
But I just don’t understand what is the motivation for doing that. Are 
you fomenting—

Elon Musk: My partner is half Indian, and I have 4 children with her. 
One of them was named after a famous Indian physicist. So I would say 
I’m not racist. And also, if you look at the people that are employed at 
my companies, we have senior executives of all races. I don’t think 
there’s any racism there.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Are you anti-Muslim?

Elon Musk: I am against having— if people are coming to a country with 
antithetical views, I am against that. I’m against rape and murder. I’m 
against the imposition of rules and laws that are contrary to what we’ve 
come to accept in the West. And I think it’s a crying shame that the 
sort of traditional media like you don’t recognize this.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: First of all, I think that you hugely exaggerate 
the challenges that Europe faces. Secondly, in areas I completely agree 
with you. I think that the constraints on freedom of speech in the UK in 
certain areas are problematic. What worries me is that the people you 
are supporting are really quite vile people in some areas. Like some 
members of the AfD, Alice Weidel, whom I’ve met, is a perfectly 
thoughtful person. But in her party are some real neo-Nazis, some 
really, really awful people. And your blanket support of this kind of 
party with 240 million followers means that you have a power in Europe 
that I think perhaps you don’t realize the scale of impact you have.

Elon Musk: I hope I am having a bigger impact.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why? Why should you? Why should you be able to 
shape European politics? You don’t even live there.

Elon Musk: I think of it as the West collectively.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But do you see why this makes people think that 
this man who has all this power— he’s the world’s richest man— he thinks 
he has a right to influence our politics? That’s why, you know, we 
started this conversation saying superlatives. It’s why people loathe 
you. I mean, some people do loathe you.

Elon Musk: Yes, some people do.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But do you understand why? Do you think what 
you’re doing is helpful for Western democracy?

Elon Musk: Maybe some people do loathe me.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I—

Elon Musk: And that’s probably true— I don’t care. But the fact that, as 
you pointed out, a quarter billion people follow me is that I think a 
lot more people actually like me than don’t. And I think a lot more 
people hate you and the media more than you realize. Do you realize the 
media is despised? Do you realize that the view of journalists is— a 
favorable view of journalists is like 15%.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I do know that in the United States.

Elon Musk: So the shoe is on the other foot. They hate you. They hate 
you far more than they hate me.

Trust in Media and Journalism
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think there is certainly a loss of trust in 
journalism. I think in part there have been mistakes by journalists and 
journalism. I totally acknowledge that. But I also think that the kind 
of polarized environment, particularly on social media, fostered by the 
kinds of things you are pushing on X, actually helps this, makes it worse.

Elon Musk: I don’t think so. I think you’re the problem, the media. And 
speaking of loathing, you’re loathed far more than I am, and you don’t 
seem to even realize that.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think very few people know who I am relative to 
you, so I don’t think I play in the same game.

Elon Musk: The media collectively— you’re hated. Do you even know that? 
You probably don’t.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I like to think that I’m aware of my own personal 
shortcomings and The Economist’s shortcomings and our worldview 
shortcomings. But what we stand for, as you know, is liberal values, 
traditional classical liberal values, where we worry about 
concentrations of power and we believe in the individual and the dignity 
of the individual, and individual freedom. I firmly believe that. And I 
have long thought that you were a classical liberal. Classical liberal, 
J.S. Mill, limited government, individual freedom.

Elon Musk: Yeah, I agree with that.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But when I read what you post on your feed, I 
sometimes wonder whether you really do believe in that.

Elon Musk: I literally said, look, I believe in safe cities, secure 
borders, and sensible spending with respect to government. That doesn’t 
make me right-wing at all, in the least.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Does the US or do European countries score better 
on those?

Elon Musk: The US is better.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No. Safe cities— much more dangerous in the US 
than the UK. Sensible spending— bigger deficit here, out of control. You 
managed— you’ve failed to reduce it. Secure borders— now under the Trump 
administration, I agree with you. Before, not. But on 2 out of 3, 
unequivocally Europe is in a better place. Yet you seem to paint a 
picture of Europe being a hellhole.

Elon Musk: I don’t think Europe’s a hellhole.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: OK, we can agree on something.

Elon Musk: When did I ever say that?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, the picture you paint of Europe on X is not—

Elon Musk: No, you’re just making up things.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, I’m not.

Elon Musk: You just literally make it up.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, I’m not. You say civil war in Britain is 
inevitable, and then you basically proselytize for this citizen 
vigilante film, which really does paint Europe as a hellhole. It just 
starts with ominous music and it says, “Europe.”

Elon Musk: Well, there was out-of-control rape and murder.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: It’s more dangerous in this country than it is in 
Europe.

Elon Musk: Where there is danger in this country is because we fail to 
incarcerate repeat violent offenders. That’s the classic sort of Soros 
DA or judges that fail to incarcerate repeat violent offenders. And if 
somebody gets arrested 50 times, literally, for violent crimes, 
eventually they’re going to kill somebody. So you either incarcerate 
them or people will die.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think the prevalence of guns has quite a lot to 
do with it too. I mean, this is a much more dangerous country. Murder 
rates are much higher, in large part because there are so many guns.

Elon Musk: Well, let me give you an interesting number. There are more 
people that die in Europe from heat deaths than people that die from gun 
deaths in America. Why aren’t you writing an article about air conditioning?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We’ve done several on air conditioning, and we had 
on our cover last week a whole long piece about why—

Elon Musk: Pro-air conditioning?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, we’re very pro-air conditioning.

Elon Musk: Okay, good. Well, good.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Very pro. You should read us. Absolutely.

Elon Musk: Credit where it’s due.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think you have a view of The Economist that is 
not entirely accurate. So I will— you come look at England, start 
reading The Economist, and I will stand corrected on my criticism of you 
in this area.

Elon Musk: There are many parts of Britain and Europe which are not 
safe. You can’t just walk around.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But there are far more in this country. Far more.

Elon Musk: No, I don’t think so.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: All right, let’s go and get my fact-checkers to 
check that.

Elon Musk: Yeah, I don’t think that’s true.

Musk’s Influence on European Politics
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Let’s move on from this because I think I’ve got a 
sense of why you’re doing what you’re doing.

Elon Musk: The point is not— the question is not, is America perfect? 
The question is, does Europe have a serious and growing problem?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: That’s where we started this.

Elon Musk: Europe has a serious and growing problem. I’m not going to 
say that the United States has no problems. Of course it does. But we 
should all try to address these issues.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We can agree on that. We should all try to address 
the problems. My point was simply that I think you exaggerate the scale 
of Europe’s problem and that—

Elon Musk: I think people are asleep at the switch and do not realize 
the magnitude of the issue.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I also think that your interventions, however 
well-intentioned they may be, risk making Europe’s problem a lot worse.

Elon Musk: How?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Because you are putting your support behind people 
who are proto-authoritarians, who are not trying simply to make sure 
there is better integration of Muslims or to secure the borders, but who 
have very clear fascist tendencies. And you will cause huge divisions 
within Europe.

Elon Musk: I think what you’re saying is total fiction. And really, I’m 
simply saying that Europe has to have secure borders.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: On that, we agree.

Elon Musk: And should not let in vast numbers of people with views that 
are antithetical to the accepted views in Europe and where there will 
not be some level of safe cultural integration. This is simply common sense.

Immigration, Political Views, and the Future
Zanny Minton Beddoes: If all you are saying is Europe should have secure 
borders, I completely agree with you. Then I have misunderstood what 
your interventions have been on social media, because that is not what 
the view I have — not what I would conclude having seen what the people 
you are supporting and the things you’re doing. But if that’s your goal, 
I share your goal that Europe should have secure borders. Yes. I think 
that’s perfectly agreeable. That gets me to a question.

Elon Musk: And let me explain what the fundamental forcing function here 
is for why the borders are not secure, which is when you have a welfare 
state that provides substantial benefits to anyone who comes there, you 
create a very powerful economic forcing function for anyone who is below 
that standard of living to come to Europe. It is an obvious powerful 
driving force. And people will come there if their standard of living 
is, from what they get in Europe, is above where they are elsewhere in 
the world. It’s very basic.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I completely agree with that. Yes, it’s a very 
basic incentive structure, economic conditions, economic influences 
determine a lot of migration. I think asylum is a separate issue, but I 
think you’re absolutely right. There are pressures for migration. 
However, there are other things that you haven’t focused on, which is 
migration brings a lot of benefits, and it also particularly does so in 
a continent like Europe, which is a rapidly aging continent.

So we can agree that completely uncontrolled borders are a bad idea. But 
I think Europe benefits from having immigration, controlled immigration. 
It brings —

Elon Musk: I’m in favor of immigration. Obviously, I’d be hypocritical 
if I wasn’t since I’m an immigrant to the United States. I’m in favor of 
immigration if the person immigrating is going to be a productive member 
of society, if they’re going to be honest, and if they’re not going to 
mistreat people in that country they’re going to.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I can agree on all of those.

Elon Musk: Yes.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think that Europe does better on that than 
you give it credit for. That’s, I think, where we disagree. But let’s 
move on. Tell me, what do you think people get most wrong about you?

Elon Musk: Well, you’ve just got a whole bunch of things wrong about me. 
Pretty much everything in the last — just rewind the last 20 minutes, 
it’s all wrong.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: So I got — we got — I got wrong your —

Elon Musk: Let’s not be repetitive here.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Okay, so that political side of you, people get 
most wrong.

On Being Labeled “Far Right”
Elon Musk: Yeah, my political views are very centrist. They’re not far 
right. And frankly, calling it far right, I think, is an insult to 
history, an insult to many peoples, and it is an outrageous falsehood. 
It’s completely absurd. I literally have stated my position, which is 
that — and I’ve been very clear about this — which is that there need to 
be secure borders. That if there’s an influx of immigrants, then they 
need to be people who will agree with Western ideals, with Western values.

And if they don’t, and if there’s a long-term growth of people who do 
not, or in some cases are adamantly opposed to Western values, you are 
setting yourself up for civil war. This is obvious. A child can see 
this. But this is not a right-wing view. I’m simply stating reality.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, I think we can both agree that evidence will 
be able to decide which of us is more or less right, and we will find 
evidence for both of our views in different parts of Europe. The 
question is what the overall —

Elon Musk: I’m very good at predicting the future. I’m not perfect, but 
I’m very good at predicting the future. My batting average is very high 
for a human. But this does have somewhat of a Cassandra effect where 
people don’t believe that what I’m saying is likely to be true because I 
can see into the future with a higher probability of success than most 
people — not perfectly, but with a higher probability.

And including things that people believe to be in some cases 
counterintuitive. Again, I’m not saying I’m always right. I certainly am 
not. But my batting average is very good. But this does have, like I 
said, a Cassandra effect where people don’t realize that what I’m saying 
will come to pass, maybe not exactly in the timing that I thought, but 
it will come to pass.

And yeah, history will write the verdict. But I think you will see that 
very little of what I have said is inaccurate. And a supermajority of 
what I’ve said is very accurate and will come to pass unless there’s 
some change in direction.

AI vs. Political Predictions
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you have a higher confidence level in your 
expectations of the future for AI, the first part of our conversation, 
or the latter part, the political part?

Elon Musk: AI is digital superintelligence. It’s called the singularity, 
like a black hole, because you don’t know what’s going to happen after 
that. It sort of sucks in everything. So I think really in terms of the 
really big macro effects here, AI and robots will really dominate 
everything, on a timescale that is less than 10 years.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Which probably renders this other stuff that we’ve 
been talking about less important and less relevant.

Elon Musk: The AI robotics revolution will happen sooner than civil war 
in Britain. I would say civil war in Britain is probably 20 years away. 
And the AI robot singularity is 10 years away.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, hopefully these benign, all-powerful AIs 
will prevent such outcomes.

Elon Musk: They probably will.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Elon, I don’t agree with everything you say, but 
it’s always absolutely fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much 
indeed.

Elon Musk: You’re welcome. I’m not boring.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You’re definitely not boring.

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