Re: what is economics for anyways????????

At Thu, 30 Jul 2026 12:42:07 -0400, Noah Sombrero <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 10:29:45 -0400, Wilson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> 
> >On 7/29/2026 5:53 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
> >> On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 17:23:19 -0400, Wilson <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> On 7/28/2026 5:47 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2026 17:08:33 -0400, Wilson <[email protected]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On 7/28/2026 3:00 PM, dart200 wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/28/26 10:02 AM, Wilson wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 7/27/2026 7:08 PM, dart200 wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 7/27/26 1:04 PM, Wilson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> In the context of software and music I don't think you're 100%
> >>>>>>>>> wrong. But I'd want multiple digital communities to chose from. They
> >>>>>>>>> might all want to use the same interchangeable format but no lock-in
> >>>>>>>>> to a single provider. Choice incentivizes better service and it
> >>>>>>>>> drives innovation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> choice also has a massive cost: duplicated effort, which is the
> >>>>>>>> antithesis of efficiency when it comes to computing
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> blindly calling for choice endlessly, is a thoughtless response that
> >>>>>>>> has no bearing on the truth of the matter
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> having a communally owned solutions operated with the goal of
> >>>>>>>> fulfilling the needs of the consumers, instead of random-ass number
> >>>>>>>> go up, is going to be vastly superior economic paradigm
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That will kill innovation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ur not capable of identifying innovation wilson, cause having info-tech
> >>>>>> companies compete to solve info-tech infrastructure is an anti-pattern
> >>>>>> that impedes upon idealized system, meaning they _cannot_ innovate
> >>>>>> toward optimal systems. having a slew of sub optimal solution is _not_
> >>>>>> innovation wilson
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Word salad.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For better or worse, through history we've never seen more innovation
> >>>>> than what an open market allows with private actors seeing and meeting
> >>>>> the needs of the people.
> >>>>
> >>>> Right, let's not think about the renaissance.  Hardly anybody knows
> >>>> about that anymore anyway.
> >> 
> >> There was no such thing as big business at that time.  There was
> >> certainly no open market involved.
> >> 
> >> through history we've never seen more innovation than what an open
> >> market... Yes, the renaissance was such a time, but it had nothing to
> >> do with open markets.  It was patronage of wealthy men.  Like popes
> >> and nobility who were able to scrounge wealth from feudalism.
> >> 
> >>> private actors seeing and meeting the needs of the people.
> >> 
> >> What they see and meet these days is their own need to make a profit.
> >> Needs of people has nothing to do with it.  It is true though, that
> >> with a little creative marketing you can sell refrigerators to eskimos
> >> these days.
> >> 
> >>> The renaissance was partially funded by governments and rulers who
> >>> commissioned public works and used art for legitimacy and propaganda,
> >>> but most was paid for by private sector orgs.
> >>>
> >>> "Wealthy banking and trading families, most famously the Medici in
> >>> Florence, used commercial profits to commission art, architecture,
> >>> scholarship, and science. They supported artists (Donatello, Botticelli,
> >>> and Michelangelo early on), architects (Brunelleschi’s dome), and
> >>> libraries. Other families (Strozzi, etc.) and guilds (corporate bodies
> >>> of merchants/craftsmen) also commissioned major works, such as statues
> >>> for Orsanmichele. In Florence especially, private donors funded much
> >>> church construction and decoration by buying chapels and furnishings.
> >>> This commercial wealth and competition for status/prestige were big drivers.
> >>>
> >>> The Church was one of the largest overall patrons.
> >> 
> >> Patronage   That is what was going on.  Not open markets meeting the
> >> needs of people  The pope commissioned the sistine chapel.  What need
> >> of people did that meet?  Did it help feed the poor?  Could the cost
> >> of that chapel been better used?
> >> 
> >> If michaelangeo had not received that commission, would he not have
> >> used his abilities in some other way?  Sure he would.  He was an
> >> artist, artists do art one way or the other.
> >> 
> >>> Popes commissioned
> >>> major projects in Rome like Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel ceiling, work
> >>> by Raphael, the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica, and Vatican
> >>> decorations. Funding came from Church revenues. Religious orders,
> >>> clergy, and confraternities were also active patrons of religious art
> >>> and architecture."
> >> 
> >> And not at all from innovation that an open market allows.  Thanks for
> >> making my point.
> >
> >How did the Medici family during the renaissance make their money?
> >
> >"Primarily through banking (especially as papal bankers), combined with 
> >trade in wool, silk, and later alum, plus related manufacturing.
> >The family’s major rise began with Giovanni di Bicci de’ Medici (c. 
> >1360–1429). Earlier Medici had roots in the Mugello region north of 
> >Florence, with some involvement in land, commerce, and money-changing, 
> >but they were not among the top banking houses. Giovanni trained and 
> >worked under a successful cousin, Vieri di Cambio de’ Medici. He later 
> >took control of Roman operations and formally established the Medici 
> >Bank in Florence in 1397."
> >
> >More:
> >https://grok.com/share/c2hhcmQtMi1jb3B5_401d4876-2185-4ae1-bfb8-ecd62a8e6f07
> >
> >They originally made their money primarily through financing merchants, 
> >which relied on trade. AKA the free market.
> >
> >So much of what Noah thinks he knows is simply wrong.
> 
> We started here:
> 
> > For better or worse, through history we've never seen more innovation
> > than what an open market allows with private actors seeing and meeting
> > the needs of the people.
> 
> I said, the renaissance.
> You said, yeh, that is also "open market allows with private actors
> seeing and meeting the needs of the people"
> 
> I say, it was no such thing.  It was the appearance of wealth from the
> feudal system, and the pope's churches.  Do wealthy nobles and wealth
> churches equal your "private actors"?  No, those simply were the
> overlords of the time.  The little local cobbler, and carpenter, and
> farmer always were and still are the source of the wealth of
> overlords.
> 
> As always the concern of rich people is how to get richer, "needs of
> people be damned"?  The commercial revolution
> 
> 1) made a place where rich people can put their wealth so it is harder
> to steal - banks
> 2) exploited and sell resources 
> 
> Again comes the need, how can rich people get richer?  The industrial
> revolution.  And then the advertising revolution.
> 
> Why is advertising necessary?  Because basic needs of people are now
> mostly met, so how can rich people continue to get richer?  By
> convincing people they have a need for gizmos and gallipers that
> industry can make.  There seems to be no end to that.  
> 
> 50 different kinds each of potato chips, and shampoos, and allergy
> relief and pain relief, and cars, and trucks and airplanes.  All of
> which you really do need, don't you, don't you, don't you?  You really
> think this song is about you.  No it is not about you, it is about how
> can rich people get richer.
> 
> It always was.  But it has never been about private actors seeing and
> meeting the needs of the people.  Although, they certainly want you to
> believe that.

I am in agreement of what you are saying, but not all wealthy people
start out with generational wealth.

Some people get "lucky", for varying values of luck.  For some, "luck"
is "opportunity" + "action".

Starting an ISP in 1994 was the smartest thing we ever did.  Now we are the
exception, not the rule:  10Gbit/s residential fiber to the home.

I'd be glad to tell you more, but I'm under the weather right now.

-- 
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