Re: istnet.bible,,DID YOU KNOW God is ONLY Saving Outside the Churches?

On 7/7/2026 9:04 AM, Christ Rose wrote:
> ========================================
> Mon, 6 Jul 2026 22:23:20 -0700,
>   <[email protected]>
>   Noah Wang <[email protected]> wrote:
> ========================================
> 
>> On 7/1/2026 8:56 AM, Christ Rose wrote:
>>> He twice predicted the return of Christ on certain dates, and was 
>>> wrong both times.
>>>
>>> The Bible says if someone's prophecy does not come to pass, he has 
>>> spoken presumptuously. He is a false prophet. You shall not fear him.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, none of the verses you quote say or necessitate the idea 
>>> that God is no longer using the church to promote the gospel in the 
>>> world, or that He has set the church or His promises to the church 
>>> aside.

Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except 
there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the 
son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that 
is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing 
himself that he is God.


>>>
>>> Of course, since the church consists of those who are already being 
>>> saved by God, it's only reasonable that God has to save people who 
>>> are outside the church in order to bring more people to salvation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> P.S. Sending an article to more than six groups is considered spam, 
>>> but so is sending the same article to 20 different groups, 
>>> individually. This is considered even a worse form of spam than 
>>> sending one article to many groups, because it occupies physical 
>>> space on all the different groups instead of just one. You were 
>>> sending one article to a bunch of groups. Now you're spamming the 
>>> same article to groups individually.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are a lot of arguments here. To begin with, you  say " The 
>> English Standard Version bases its New Testament on older and more
>> complete Greek manuscripts than those available when the Textus Receptus
>> was compiled...."
>>
>> It is important to remember that "older"
>> manuscripts are not necessarily more accurate. For example the 
>> majority of churches (Catholic and Orthodox) worldwide today use the 
>> Septuagint as their Old Testament. The Septuagint is verifiably old 
>> yet careful Bible students will recognize  that the Septuagint has a 
>> history enmeshed in deceit, contains a number of anomalies and has 
>> entire books added to the Bible. 
> 
> 
> The Holy Spirit inspired New Testament writers used the LXX. For 
> example, they used Kyrios (Lᴏʀᴅ) as an inspired translation for YHWH. 
> The KJV uses "Jehovah". You can't claim you believe the Bible is 
> inspired, then trash the version the Holy Spirit inspired apostles used.

In Matthew 5:18 KJV, it reads "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven 
and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the 
law, till all be fulfilled."  Are not  "jot"s and a "tittle"s  small 
marks in the Hebrew alphabet?  Does it sound like Christ was referring 
to a Greek manuscript?

Even more glaringly obvious is the number of books in the Septuagint 
(Old Testament). It contains 50-70 books!  This alone ought to raise 
eyebrows of someone of sound mind.
The book of Tobit in the Septuagint teaches that rubbing fish gall into 
one's eye while simultaneously blowing thereinto will cure blindness 
(Tobit 6:3-9).
That smoke emanating from  burning  a fish's liver and heart in the 
presence of someone afflicted by evil will permanently cure his/her 
affliction (Tobit 6:3-9).
Doing good works ("alms") "purges all sin" implying that one can be 
granted eternal life in heaven by doing the same (Tobit 12:9). Whereas, 
the Bible teaches "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not 
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should 
boast "  Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. Does it sound like the Lord Jesus would 
approve of the doctrine above?

Upon reading the first page of the Book of Sirach, one quickly notices 
anomalies. For example is there any book in the Bible that starts with a 
"Prologue"?  Who does the Book of Sirach say the author is? Who does the 
book of Jeremiah say the author is? Does the Bible teach that we should 
praise a physical nation that killed its own profits and perished 
because of unbelief? The book of 2 Maccabbes teaches that prayer and 
sacrifices can atone for the sins of the dead, whereas this is not 
taught in the Bible. It seems it should be clear that such Septuagint 
books do not belong in the Bible. If one maintains that they should be, 
then it seems the prophesies in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJV and Isaiah 
28:7(KJV) are being fulfilled  for those who remain in the church?: "And 
for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should 
believe a lie: ...But they also have erred through wine, and through 
strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred 
through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the 
way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment."

Another major anomaly is the the patriarchal chronology of the LXX 
(Septuagint). "The Patriarchal chronology of the LXX can be explained 
from the Hebrew on the principle that the translators of the former 
desired to lengthen the chronology and to graduate the length of the 
lives of those who lived after the Flood so as to make the shortening of 
the life spans gradual and continuous, instead of sudden and abrupt. 
This fit into their philosophical concept of gradual and uniform change 
(pre “uniformitarianism”); a philosophy which embraced the basic 
precepts of evolution. That is, they were primeval evolutionists. Thus 
the dramatic life span changes, which manifested the historic results of 
the sudden catastrophic transformations upon the earth and all life due 
to the worldwide Deluge, were altered to eliminate such positive 
evidence which was contrary to their
religious-philosophic beliefs. (P.18 in The Septuagint: A Critical 
Analysis by Floyd Nolan Jones,Th.D.,Ph.D.).

As mentioned before, if one use uses the numbers in 1 and 2 Kings of the 
Septuagint, one will not arrive at the correct length of reigns of the 
Hebrew Kings. This alone, ought to alert a Bible student of sound mind 
that the Septuagint is not an accurate translation.

For those reading THE SEPTUAGINT: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS by Floyd Nolen 
Jones, Th.D., Ph.D., it presents startlingly accurate information about 
the Septuagint. However, the writer does not agree with every detail Dr. 
Jones provides regarding the reigns of the Hebrew kings, nor with his 
interpretation of the genealogies in Genesis.


> 
> The Textus Receptus relies on a very small number of late medieval 
> manuscripts. Erasmus compiled the first edition in 1516 using around 
> half a dozen Greek manuscripts dating mostly from the twelfth to the 
> fifteenth centuries. In contrast, modern critical texts draw from 
> thousands of manuscripts, including early papyri and major uncial 
> codices dating from the second to the fourth centuries, such as Codex 
> Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. The proximity of these earlier 
> manuscripts to the original autographs reduces the time frame for 
> scribal errors, additions, or alterations to accumulate.
> 
> The Textus Receptus represents a localized textual tradition rather than 
> the full breadth of historical evidence. The manuscripts available to 
> Erasmus belonged almost exclusively to the Byzantine text-type, which 
> reflects the text as it was standardized and copied in the Byzantine 
> Empire during the Middle Ages. Textual scholars argue that relying 
> solely on this tradition ignores the independent testimony of early 
> manuscripts from other regions, such as Egypt and the Western church, 
> which often preserve older readings before the text underwent stylistic 
> smoothing and harmonization by later scribes.
> 
> The Textus Receptus contains known instances of back-translation and 
> late textual insertions. Because Erasmus lacked a complete Greek 
> manuscript for the Book of Revelation, he translated the final six 
> verses from the Latin Vulgate back into Greek. This resulted in several 
> unique Greek readings and spelling variations that exist in no known 
> Greek manuscript. Furthermore, passages like the Johannine Comma in 1 
> John 5:7-8, which explicitly states the doctrine of the Trinity, are 
> absent from all early Greek manuscripts and appear only in a handful of 
> very late Greek manuscripts, indicating they were late additions to the 
> Latin tradition rather than part of the original apostolic text [note: I 
> believe the Bible teaches God is triune, but the way they inserted it in 
> 1 John is not validated by most texts, and appears like a scribal 
> addition].
> 
> The textual philosophy of the Byzantine tradition favors expansion and 
> harmonization over brevity and difficulty. Scribes copying manuscripts 
> over centuries frequently smoothed out grammatical difficulties, 
> harmonized parallel passages in the Gospels, and added explanatory 
> phrases or liturgical conclusions, such as the doxology at the end of 
> the Lord's Prayer. Modern textual criticism operates on the principle 
> that the shorter and more difficult reading is often closer to the 
> original, as scribes were far more likely to clarify or expand a text 
> than to omit or complicate it. The Textus Receptus preserves these 
> accumulated scribal expansions, whereas critical texts seek to strip 
> away these later additions to recover the earliest form of the words.
> 
> 
>> Ultimately, what determines whether verses are accurate is whether or 
>> not they are in harmony with the rest of the Bible. If we compare 
>> copies with copies (compare Scripture with Scripture) then according 
>> to the Bible there will be no errors: Psalm 12:6–7. Also when you say 
>> " ...reflects the original words of the biblical authors," that 
>> statement should be challenged:the Bible teaches that there is one 
>> Author (not authorS), but many penmen.
> 
> 
> That's what I was saying. There's too much context to demonize 
> translations like the ESV, over it's use of a word here and there. KJV 
> only people see one word that doesn't match what they want, and they 
> pretend like it means the other translations is denying or trying to 
> omit key Bible doctrines. But then when you look in the immediate 
> context, the teaching is still there and not being denied:
> 
> A clear example of this is found in Luke 2:33. The King James Version 
> reads, "And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were 
> spoken of him." The English Standard Version translates the same verse 
> as, "And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him."
> 
> Critics often point to the ESV's use of the word "father" to claim that 
> modern translations are attacking the virgin birth of Christ by implying 
> Joseph was Jesus' biological father.
> 
> However, the immediate context completely refutes this claim. Just a few 
> verses earlier, in Luke 1:34-35, the text explicitly details the virgin 
> birth. Mary asks, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" and the angel 
> answers, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most 
> High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called 
> holy—the Son of God."
> 
> Furthermore, later in the same chapter, Luke 2:49 shows Jesus correcting 
> Mary when she refers to Joseph as his father, with Jesus asking, "Did 
> you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"
> 
> The broader context of Luke's Gospel makes the virgin birth undeniably 
> clear, demonstrating that the use of "father" in Luke 2:33 is simply a 
> description of Joseph's legal and social role as Jesus' earthly 
> guardian, not an omission or denial of doctrine.
> 
> 
>> I'm open to discussing one of your statements. You say the Bible 
>> defines Babylon at times as "false religious system called Babylon."  
>> Could you please present your verses to back up your conclusion? 
>> Unfortunately, I do not have the time to address your other arguments.
> 
> 
> This pattern of Babylon representing a false religious system begins at 
> the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11:1-4. The post-flood population 
> congregated in the land of Shinar with a specific religious and 
> political objective: "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower 
> with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves." This 
> was a direct rejection of God's command to fill the earth. The tower was 
> an attempt to establish human autonomy and a man-made system of reaching 
> the heavens, bypassing the authority of God. It established Babel as the 
> foundational archetype of organized, institutionalized false worship.
> 
> As the historical empire of Babylon grew, the Old Testament prophets 
> consistently emphasized that its defining characteristic was its 
> elaborate system of idolatry and sorcery. In Isaiah 47:12-13, the 
> prophet addresses Babylon's reliance on occult practices rather than the 
> living God: "Stand fast in your enchantments and your many sorceries, 
> with which you have labored from your youth... Let now those who divide 
> the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who predict by the new moons, stand 
> up and save you." Jeremiah 50:38 explicitly links the physical land to 
> its spiritual corruption, stating, "For it is a land of images, and they 
> are mad over idols." The Bible presents Babylon as a place where false 
> religion dictates state policy and cultural identity.
> 
> Furthermore, Babylon acted as a corrupting spiritual influence that 
> actively sought to assimilate God's people into false worship. In Daniel 
> 3, King Nebuchadnezzar sets up a massive golden image on the plain of 
> Dura and demands universal worship under penalty of death. This 
> historical event demonstrates the mechanism of the Babylonian system: it 
> enforces a false religious consensus, elevates man or state to the 
> status of a deity, and persecutes those who remain loyal to the true God.
> 
> The New Testament pulls these historical and prophetic threads together 
> in the book of Revelation, completing the portrait of Babylon as the 
> ultimate manifestation of false religion. In Revelation 17:5, she is 
> called "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's 
> abominations." The title "mother" establishes her as the source and 
> historical origin of all spiritual prostitution—a term used throughout 
> scripture to denote idolatry and the betrayal of God for false deities.
> 
> Revelation 18:23 states that "all nations were deceived by your 
> sorcery." This directly connects the spiritual deception of the end- 
> times Babylon back to the sorceries and enchantments condemned in Isaiah 
> 47. By tracing the concept from Genesis to Revelation, the biblical text 
> shows a continuous development: Babylon begins as a localized rebellion 
> against God's order at Babel, operates historically as an empire driven 
> by idolatry and the occult, and culminates as a global, deceptive 
> religious system that opposes the truth until its final destruction.
> 
We agree that Babylon was a sinful nation from the days in Genesis to 
the time they destroyed Judah. It is also true that they followed false 
religions. But the question is what does Babylon represent in Revelation 
17:5, Revelation 18:2-5 Revelation 14:8 KJV, among others?

You say Babylon is defined as "a false religious system.' In a sense 
that is true but it is not exactly the definition that is in view in the 
verses above. How do we know?  Notice in Revelation 18:2 it reads she 
has "become the habitation of devils...and a cage of every unclean..." 
meaning that earlier, her condition was not so. But we know right from 
the beginning after the flood that  Babylon was wicked and engaged in 
polytheism. Furthermore, notice the word "cage." "Cage" implies a 
physical confinement, not some abstract confinement of literary terms. 
In fact, the only other verse where cage is used is in Jeremiah 5:27: 
"As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: 
therefore they are become great, and waxen rich." Also please note Rev. 
18:24 KJV: "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, 
and of all that were slain upon the earth."   Where were the believers 
typically found during the church age? Was it not in churches and 
congregations?

Further, notice that in Revelation 18:3 we read "the kings of the earth 
have committed fornication with her.." In the Bible, kings can have 4 
different meanings (The End of the Church Age and After, Harold Camping, 
p.299): (1) Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords King of kings, (2)Satan 
(Revelation 17:12), (3) political kings and (4) the true believers 
(Revelation 5:10).  Therefore the only fitting definition are the 
believers. Inside a corrupt church, believers will be hearing and 
possibly spreading false doctrine, thus engaging in spiritual 
fornication. Notice also "fornication with HER [emph. added]."  The 
church is referred to a woman since the church is ordinarily where true 
believers would congregate. The true believers make up the Jerusalem 
above, i.e.,  the eternal church, which is the bride of Christ. 
Revelation 18:3 is similar in language to that of Revelation 17:2. "We 
should note that in this verse, the action of committing fornication is 
in the past tense. Therefore, it must be speaking about true believers 
who in the past, while they were members of the visible church, 
committed spiritual fornication. This is because they were trusting the 
doctrines taught to them by the church. If any of those doctrines were 
contrary to the Bible, that made those true believers commit spiritual 
fornication. Of course, from God’s vantage point, they remained the pure 
bride of Christ because all of their sins have been covered by the blood 
of Christ. Once they leave the church and are no longer required to be 
under its authority, that spiritual fornication can come to an end. 
There is no possibility that this verse is speaking about the secular or 
political kings of the earth. This is so because their spiritual 
fornication continues regardless of what happens to the churches.
In the same verse, God speaks of others in the church (Babylon) who are 
guilty of spiritual drunkenness. They closely identify with those 
described in Isaiah 28:7, where we read:
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out 
of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, 
they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong 
drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment." (p. 300 End of the 
Church Age and After, Harold Camping).

We also notice in 1 Peter 5:13 KJV, that a persecuted church identifies 
with Babylon. Isn't interesting that in the original Greek, it reads 
"The [blank] at Babylon, is elected together with [blank], saluteth you; 
and [blank] Marcus my son." It seems God intentionally left out these 
words so as to compel  the reader to fill in the blanks. This forces the 
reader to understand what Babylon represents. By leaving out the words, 
it seems God is underscoring the importance of the reader to understand 
the meaning of Babylon.

> 
>> However, to conclude, if you think all of the research done by Mr. 
>> Camping is incorrect, I am willing walk through any entry with you in 
>> the book "The Perfect Harmony of the Numbers of the Hebrew Kings." 
>> Please keep in mind that the dates of the kings' reigns derived by Mr. 
>> Camping are in accord with secular dates such as those recorded on the 
>> stelae in the British Museum. While Edwin Thiele made some important 
>> contributions in understanding the numbers, he never was able to 
>> harmonize them. According to published literature, Mr. Camping is the 
>> first person in the world to have done so (https://drive.google.com/ 
>> file/d/1TVEoV6LQz0WcnpXRqMN8TOVxeattvNkI/preview?rm=minimal)  unless 
>> someone can point out an error in his derivation. On the other hand, 
>> Mr. Camping's derivation would  not come as a surprise since at the 
>> time of the end "..knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4 KJV).
> 
> 
> I listened to family radio for decades, simply because they offered 
> traditional worship music rather than contemporary, worldly music. So 
> I'm familiar with what Harold Camping taught. He wasn't wrong about 
> everything. However,
> 
>       “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing
>        follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD
>        hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously:
>        thou shalt not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:22, KJV 1900)

Yes he was wrong about the date of the return of Christ and the end of 
the world. But his source of  information did not come from dreams, 
visions, "Holy Fathers" or similar. He did not try to intentionally 
mislead anyone. He diligently compared Scripture with Scripture.
He always said don't trust me, only trust the Bible. Also the Bible 
teaches that "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."


> 
> The Bible says that if the words of a "prophet" do not come to pass, he 
> is a false prophet, he has spoken presumptuously. You shall not be 
> afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:22). At least twice during my lifetime, 
> Harold Camping predicted a date for Christ's return. He was wrong both 
> times. That's not something that makes me want to get into a deeper 
> study of what he taught.

Actually his only other prediction of the end of the world was 
supposedly 1994. However, what media and critics often leave out is that 
he put a question mark after the date 1994 on his book cover.

> 
> He condemned local churches as if they were Babylon, and counseled 
> people to come out of her. Meanwhile, he runs a global radio ministry 
> where he claims to offer people the right counsel. He set himself up as 
> the sole voice to listen to, by trashing local churches. This is NOT 
> what the Bible says. The Bible does NOT teach that God wants people to 
> come out of the church. He warned in Revelation to come out of "Babylon" 
> (idolatrous political/religious/merch-worshiping economic system of the 
> world), but not their local churches (Revelation 2-4).
> 
Based on the examples above and on all the verses presented in the book 
The End of the Church Age and After, it is difficult to accept that 
there is a Biblical basis for interpreting Babylon as a 
"political/religious/merch-worshiping economic system of the world."


Again it is very difficult to agree with " The Bible does NOT teach that 
God wants people to come out of the church" in light of the verses above 
and those presented in the End of Church Age and After.

The following references are referring to the same event as that spoken 
of in Matthew 24:15-16: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of 
desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, 
(whoso readeth, let himunderstand:) Then let them which be in Judaea 
flee into the mountains:..."

The End of the Church Age and After p. 184:

Thus, the language that speaks of the loosing of the four angels who 
will hurt the earth and the sea is speaking of the same event as the 
killing of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. It is the same event that 
is spoken of in Matthew 24:21, “For then shall be great tribulation. It 
is the same event that is spoken of in Revelation 13 when a beast comes 
out of the sea and a beast comes out of the earth. It is the same event 
that Daniel 7:23 describes as the fourth beast that shall devour the 
whole earth. It is the same event as that in the account of Daniel 8 
where God describes the little horn that will magnify himself even to 
the prince of the host and cause the sanctuary to be trodden under foot 
for 2300 days. It is the same event as that described in Matthew 24:15 
concerning the abomination of desolation that stands in the holy place. 
It is the same event that is spoken of in Luke 21:20 which says 
Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies.
It is the same event spoken of in Matthew 24:2, in Mark 13:2, and in 
Luke 21:6 where God indicates that all the stones in the temple will be 
thrown down so that not one will be left upon another. It is the same 
event spoken of in II Thessalonians 2:3-11 wherein God says that He that 
restrains (restrains Satan), will be taken out of the midst, and Satan 
will rule in the temple (the churches and congregations). It is the same 
truth as that which is in view as God describes the destruction of the 
ships of Tarshish in Isaiah 23 and the destruction of Tyrus and Zidon in 
Ezekiel Chapters 27 and 28. It is the same event that was anticipated by 
the trauma Jacob endured when he went to Egypt to escape the famine. It 
is the same truth anticipated by the destruction of Judah that began in 
609 B.C. when the last good king, Josiah, was killed. It is the same 
truth that is pictured by the destruction of the ship from which 276 
were saved, as recorded in Acts Chapter 27.
All of these accounts together with many others are vividly recorded in 
the Bible. It is amazing how much language of the Bible is employed by 
God to illustrate what will happen when the 144,000 have been sealed. We 
can be sure that God is making certain that we do not miss the 
significance, the importance, and the reality of this tremendous event.