Re: Israel is not the Church

========================================
Fri, 31 Jul 2026 22:20:10 -0700,
  <[email protected]>
  Noah Wang <[email protected]> wrote:
========================================

> On 7/7/2026 9:04 AM, Christ Rose wrote:
>> ========================================
>> Mon, 6 Jul 2026 22:23:20 -0700,
>>   <[email protected]>
>>   Noah Wang <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ========================================
>>
>>> On 7/1/2026 8:56 AM, Christ Rose wrote:
>>>> He twice predicted the return of Christ on certain dates, and was 
>>>> wrong both times.
>>>>
>>>> The Bible says if someone's prophecy does not come to pass, he has 
>>>> spoken presumptuously. He is a false prophet. You shall not fear him.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, none of the verses you quote say or necessitate the idea 
>>>> that God is no longer using the church to promote the gospel in the 
>>>> world, or that He has set the church or His promises to the church 
>>>> aside.
> 
> Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV:
> Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except 
> there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the 
> son of perdition;
> Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that 
> is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing 
> himself that he is God.


      1. The man of sin has not yet been revealed. He has not set
         himself up as God in the rebuilt temple. The temple hasn't
         even been rebuilt yet. There is therefore no basis for
         concluding the apostasy has already occurred.

      2. This passage does not instruct believers to flee from the
         apostate church. Jesus' told Jews in "Judea" to flee to the
         mountains when the man of sin sets himself up as God in the
         Jewish temple (Matthew 24:16; Luke 21:21; Mark 13:14), not His
         church to flee from the church. We should not confuse prophecy
         for the church with prophecy for Israel.

      3. The Thessalonians were being deceived and troubled by people
         claiming the end times and rapture had already come and they
         were left out. This passage shows that's not the case. What
         you're telling people is similar: that the apostasy has
         already occurred, so we should flee from the church.

      4. My church does not teach apostasy. It proclaims sound Bible
         teaching. If it taught apostasy, I would get out of that local
         "church" and go to another one that proclaims the truth.


>>>>
>>>> Of course, since the church consists of those who are already being 
>>>> saved by God, it's only reasonable that God has to save people who 
>>>> are outside the church in order to bring more people to salvation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> P.S. Sending an article to more than six groups is considered spam, 
>>>> but so is sending the same article to 20 different groups, 
>>>> individually. This is considered even a worse form of spam than 
>>>> sending one article to many groups, because it occupies physical 
>>>> space on all the different groups instead of just one. You were 
>>>> sending one article to a bunch of groups. Now you're spamming the 
>>>> same article to groups individually.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are a lot of arguments here. To begin with, you  say " The 
>>> English Standard Version bases its New Testament on older and more
>>> complete Greek manuscripts than those available when the Textus Receptus
>>> was compiled...."
>>>
>>> It is important to remember that "older"
>>> manuscripts are not necessarily more accurate. For example the 
>>> majority of churches (Catholic and Orthodox) worldwide today use the 
>>> Septuagint as their Old Testament. The Septuagint is verifiably old 
>>> yet careful Bible students will recognize  that the Septuagint has a 
>>> history enmeshed in deceit, contains a number of anomalies and has 
>>> entire books added to the Bible. 
>>
>>
>> The Holy Spirit inspired New Testament writers used the LXX. For 
>> example, they used Kyrios (Lᴏʀᴅ) as an inspired translation for YHWH. 
>> The KJV uses "Jehovah". You can't claim you believe the Bible is 
>> inspired, then trash the version the Holy Spirit inspired apostles used.


> In Matthew 5:18 KJV, it reads "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven 
> and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the 
> law, till all be fulfilled."  Are not  "jot"s and a "tittle"s  small 
> marks in the Hebrew alphabet?  Does it sound like Christ was referring 
> to a Greek manuscript?


This establishes that not one jot or tittle will pass from the inspired 
Hebrew, not that the KJV is the most reliable translation. The ESV 
mostly uses the Hebrew MT for the OT translation anyway.

I would point out also, that I'm not against the KJV. I used to be a KJV 
only person, until I studied the sources and the circumstances around 
the translations. I don't think people are going to be led astray from 
God by using the KJV. If your conscience tells you it's the most 
reliable translation, then go ahead and use it with confidence.


> Even more glaringly obvious is the number of books in the Septuagint 
> (Old Testament). It contains 50-70 books!  This alone ought to raise 
> eyebrows of someone of sound mind.


Due to the length of the copies, they broke long books like Samuel and 
Kings down into 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, etc. Also, neither 
the LXX nor the apocryphal books themselves, claim that the apocryphal 
books are the word of God.

Paul alluded to Greek philosophy and cited things from it which were
true (Titus 1:12-13), but did not thereby endorse their writings as
Scripture, or nullify his own God-breathed Scripture unreliable (2 Peter
  3:16).

Likewise, Jude mentions prophecy from the book of Enoch, but this does 
not necessitate that he considered that whole book as being inspired 
(Jude 1:14ff.). He may simply have cited from it because his Jewish 
audience was familiar with it, and some things in it were accurate.


> The book of Tobit in the Septuagint teaches that rubbing fish gall into 
> one's eye while simultaneously blowing there into will cure blindness 
> (Tobit 6:3-9).


idem.



> That smoke emanating from  burning  a fish's liver and heart in the 
> presence of someone afflicted by evil will permanently cure his/her 
> affliction (Tobit 6:3-9).


idem.


> Doing good works ("alms") "purges all sin" implying that one can be 
> granted eternal life in heaven by doing the same (Tobit 12:9). Whereas, 
> the Bible teaches "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not 
> of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should 
> boast "  Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. Does it sound like the Lord Jesus would 
> approve of the doctrine above?


idem. I do not endorse the apocryphal books as Scripture. Neither does 
the LXX. The ESV mostly uses the Hebrew MT for Old Testament translation.


> Upon reading the first page of the Book of Sirach, one quickly notices 
> anomalies. For example is there any book in the Bible that starts with a 
> "Prologue"?  Who does the Book of Sirach say the author is? Who does the 
> book of Jeremiah say the author is? Does the Bible teach that we should 
> praise a physical nation that killed its own profits and perished 
> because of unbelief? The book of 2 Maccabbes teaches that prayer and 
> sacrifices can atone for the sins of the dead, whereas this is not 
> taught in the Bible. It seems it should be clear that such Septuagint 
> books do not belong in the Bible. If one maintains that they should be, 
> then it seems the prophesies in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJV and Isaiah 
> 28:7(KJV) are being fulfilled  for those who remain in the church?: "And 
> for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should 
> believe a lie: ...But they also have erred through wine, and through 
> strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred 
> through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the 
> way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment."


idem.

> Another major anomaly is the the patriarchal chronology of the LXX 
> (Septuagint). "The Patriarchal chronology of the LXX can be explained 
> from the Hebrew on the principle that the translators of the former 
> desired to lengthen the chronology and to graduate the length of the 
> lives of those who lived after the Flood so as to make the shortening of 
> the life spans gradual and continuous, instead of sudden and abrupt. 
> This fit into their philosophical concept of gradual and uniform change 
> (pre “uniformitarianism”); a philosophy which embraced the basic 
> precepts of evolution. That is, they were primeval evolutionists. Thus 
> the dramatic life span changes, which manifested the historic results of 
> the sudden catastrophic transformations upon the earth and all life due 
> to the worldwide Deluge, were altered to eliminate such positive 
> evidence which was contrary to their
> religious-philosophic beliefs. (P.18 in The Septuagint: A Critical 
> Analysis by Floyd Nolan Jones,Th.D.,Ph.D.).


idem. The ESV does not use the LXX chronology, but the Hebrew MT.


> As mentioned before, if one use uses the numbers in 1 and 2 Kings of the 
> Septuagint, one will not arrive at the correct length of reigns of the 
> Hebrew Kings. This alone, ought to alert a Bible student of sound mind 
> that the Septuagint is not an accurate translation.

idem.

> For those reading THE SEPTUAGINT: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS by Floyd Nolen 
> Jones, Th.D., Ph.D., it presents startlingly accurate information about 
> the Septuagint. However, the writer does not agree with every detail Dr. 
> Jones provides regarding the reigns of the Hebrew kings, nor with his 
> interpretation of the genealogies in Genesis.


idem. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach the Apostles "all things" 
(John 14:26). The Holy Spirit inspired their interpretation of the 
gospel in the epistles, as they translated it into the Greek (1 
Corinthians 2:13; 2 Peter 3:16). The inspired apostles translated YHWH 
(Hebrew MT name for God) as "Lᴏʀᴅ" (kyrios) in the Greek, just as the 
LXX does. The KJV translates it "Jehovah".

Jesus also apparently used the LXX translation over the Hebrew MT on 
occasion. For example,

Matthew 21:16 quoting Psalm 8:2

Hebrew (MT): "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained 
strength..."

LXX / Matthew 21:16: "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast 
perfected praise"

Evidence: When the chief priests and scribes were indignant at children 
praising Him in the temple, Jesus quoted Psalm 8:2 using the LXX 
rendering ("perfected praise"), directly applying it to His reception of 
worship.

Matthew 15:8–9 quoting Isaiah 29:13

Hebrew (MT): "...their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men"

LXX / Matthew 15:9: "...but in vain they do worship me, teaching for 
doctrines the commandments of men"

Evidence: Jesus confronts the Pharisees using the LXX phrasing "in vain 
they do worship me," an explicit phrase present in the Greek text rather 
than the Masoretic wording.


>>
>> The Textus Receptus relies on a very small number of late medieval 
>> manuscripts. Erasmus compiled the first edition in 1516 using around 
>> half a dozen Greek manuscripts dating mostly from the twelfth to the 
>> fifteenth centuries. In contrast, modern critical texts draw from 
>> thousands of manuscripts, including early papyri and major uncial 
>> codices dating from the second to the fourth centuries, such as Codex 
>> Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. The proximity of these earlier 
>> manuscripts to the original autographs reduces the time frame for 
>> scribal errors, additions, or alterations to accumulate.
>>
>> The Textus Receptus represents a localized textual tradition rather 
>> than the full breadth of historical evidence. The manuscripts 
>> available to Erasmus belonged almost exclusively to the Byzantine 
>> text-type, which reflects the text as it was standardized and copied 
>> in the Byzantine Empire during the Middle Ages. Textual scholars argue 
>> that relying solely on this tradition ignores the independent 
>> testimony of early manuscripts from other regions, such as Egypt and 
>> the Western church, which often preserve older readings before the 
>> text underwent stylistic smoothing and harmonization by later scribes.
>>
>> The Textus Receptus contains known instances of back-translation and 
>> late textual insertions. Because Erasmus lacked a complete Greek 
>> manuscript for the Book of Revelation, he translated the final six 
>> verses from the Latin Vulgate back into Greek. This resulted in 
>> several unique Greek readings and spelling variations that exist in no 
>> known Greek manuscript. Furthermore, passages like the Johannine Comma 
>> in 1 John 5:7-8, which explicitly states the doctrine of the Trinity, 
>> are absent from all early Greek manuscripts and appear only in a 
>> handful of very late Greek manuscripts, indicating they were late 
>> additions to the Latin tradition rather than part of the original 
>> apostolic text [note: I believe the Bible teaches God is triune, but 
>> the way they inserted it in 1 John is not validated by most texts, and 
>> appears like a scribal addition].
>>
>> The textual philosophy of the Byzantine tradition favors expansion and 
>> harmonization over brevity and difficulty. Scribes copying manuscripts 
>> over centuries frequently smoothed out grammatical difficulties, 
>> harmonized parallel passages in the Gospels, and added explanatory 
>> phrases or liturgical conclusions, such as the doxology at the end of 
>> the Lord's Prayer. Modern textual criticism operates on the principle 
>> that the shorter and more difficult reading is often closer to the 
>> original, as scribes were far more likely to clarify or expand a text 
>> than to omit or complicate it. The Textus Receptus preserves these 
>> accumulated scribal expansions, whereas critical texts seek to strip 
>> away these later additions to recover the earliest form of the words.
>>
>>
>>> Ultimately, what determines whether verses are accurate is whether or 
>>> not they are in harmony with the rest of the Bible. If we compare 
>>> copies with copies (compare Scripture with Scripture) then according 
>>> to the Bible there will be no errors: Psalm 12:6–7. Also when you say 
>>> " ...reflects the original words of the biblical authors," that 
>>> statement should be challenged:the Bible teaches that there is one 
>>> Author (not authorS), but many penmen.
>>
>>
>> That's what I was saying. There's too much context to demonize 
>> translations like the ESV, over it's use of a word here and there. KJV 
>> only people see one word that doesn't match what they want, and they 
>> pretend like it means the other translations is denying or trying to 
>> omit key Bible doctrines. But then when you look in the immediate 
>> context, the teaching is still there and not being denied:
>>
>> A clear example of this is found in Luke 2:33. The King James Version 
>> reads, "And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were 
>> spoken of him." The English Standard Version translates the same verse 
>> as, "And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him."
>>
>> Critics often point to the ESV's use of the word "father" to claim 
>> that modern translations are attacking the virgin birth of Christ by 
>> implying Joseph was Jesus' biological father.
>>
>> However, the immediate context completely refutes this claim. Just a 
>> few verses earlier, in Luke 1:34-35, the text explicitly details the 
>> virgin birth. Mary asks, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" and 
>> the angel answers, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power 
>> of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born 
>> will be called holy—the Son of God."
>>
>> Furthermore, later in the same chapter, Luke 2:49 shows Jesus 
>> correcting Mary when she refers to Joseph as his father, with Jesus 
>> asking, "Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"
>>
>> The broader context of Luke's Gospel makes the virgin birth undeniably 
>> clear, demonstrating that the use of "father" in Luke 2:33 is simply a 
>> description of Joseph's legal and social role as Jesus' earthly 
>> guardian, not an omission or denial of doctrine.
>>
>>
>>> I'm open to discussing one of your statements. You say the Bible 
>>> defines Babylon at times as "false religious system called Babylon." 
>>> Could you please present your verses to back up your conclusion? 
>>> Unfortunately, I do not have the time to address your other arguments.
>>
>>
>> This pattern of Babylon representing a false religious system begins 
>> at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11:1-4. The post-flood population 
>> congregated in the land of Shinar with a specific religious and 
>> political objective: "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower 
>> with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves." 
>> This was a direct rejection of God's command to fill the earth. The 
>> tower was an attempt to establish human autonomy and a man-made system 
>> of reaching the heavens, bypassing the authority of God. It 
>> established Babel as the foundational archetype of organized, 
>> institutionalized false worship.
>>
>> As the historical empire of Babylon grew, the Old Testament prophets 
>> consistently emphasized that its defining characteristic was its 
>> elaborate system of idolatry and sorcery. In Isaiah 47:12-13, the 
>> prophet addresses Babylon's reliance on occult practices rather than 
>> the living God: "Stand fast in your enchantments and your many 
>> sorceries, with which you have labored from your youth... Let now 
>> those who divide the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who predict by 
>> the new moons, stand up and save you." Jeremiah 50:38 explicitly links 
>> the physical land to its spiritual corruption, stating, "For it is a 
>> land of images, and they are mad over idols." The Bible presents 
>> Babylon as a place where false religion dictates state policy and 
>> cultural identity.
>>
>> Furthermore, Babylon acted as a corrupting spiritual influence that 
>> actively sought to assimilate God's people into false worship. In 
>> Daniel 3, King Nebuchadnezzar sets up a massive golden image on the 
>> plain of Dura and demands universal worship under penalty of death. 
>> This historical event demonstrates the mechanism of the Babylonian 
>> system: it enforces a false religious consensus, elevates man or state 
>> to the status of a deity, and persecutes those who remain loyal to the 
>> true God.
>>
>> The New Testament pulls these historical and prophetic threads 
>> together in the book of Revelation, completing the portrait of Babylon 
>> as the ultimate manifestation of false religion. In Revelation 17:5, 
>> she is called "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's 
>> abominations." The title "mother" establishes her as the source and 
>> historical origin of all spiritual prostitution—a term used throughout 
>> scripture to denote idolatry and the betrayal of God for false deities.
>>
>> Revelation 18:23 states that "all nations were deceived by your 
>> sorcery." This directly connects the spiritual deception of the end- 
>> times Babylon back to the sorceries and enchantments condemned in 
>> Isaiah 47. By tracing the concept from Genesis to Revelation, the 
>> biblical text shows a continuous development: Babylon begins as a 
>> localized rebellion against God's order at Babel, operates 
>> historically as an empire driven by idolatry and the occult, and 
>> culminates as a global, deceptive religious system that opposes the 
>> truth until its final destruction.
>>
> We agree that Babylon was a sinful nation from the days in Genesis to 
> the time they destroyed Judah. It is also true that they followed false 
> religions. But the question is what does Babylon represent in Revelation 
> 17:5, Revelation 18:2-5 Revelation 14:8 KJV, among others?
> 
> You say Babylon is defined as "a false religious system.' In a sense 
> that is true but it is not exactly the definition that is in view in the 
> verses above. How do we know?  Notice in Revelation 18:2 it reads she 
> has "become the habitation of devils...and a cage of every unclean..." 
> meaning that earlier, her condition was not so. But we know right from 
> the beginning after the flood that  Babylon was wicked and engaged in 
> polytheism. Furthermore, notice the word "cage." "Cage" implies a 
> physical confinement, not some abstract confinement of literary terms. 
> In fact, the only other verse where cage is used is in Jeremiah 5:27: 
> "As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: 
> therefore they are become great, and waxen rich." Also please note Rev. 
> 18:24 KJV: "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, 
> and of all that were slain upon the earth."   Where were the believers 
> typically found during the church age? Was it not in churches and 
> congregations?
> 
> Further, notice that in Revelation 18:3 we read "the kings of the earth 
> have committed fornication with her.." In the Bible, kings can have 4 
> different meanings (The End of the Church Age and After, Harold Camping, 
> p.299): (1) Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords King of kings, (2)Satan 
> (Revelation 17:12), (3) political kings and (4) the true believers 
> (Revelation 5:10).  Therefore the only fitting definition are the 
> believers. Inside a corrupt church, believers will be hearing and 
> possibly spreading false doctrine, thus engaging in spiritual 
> fornication. Notice also "fornication with HER [emph. added]."  The 
> church is referred to a woman since the church is ordinarily where true 
> believers would congregate. The true believers make up the Jerusalem 
> above, i.e.,  the eternal church, which is the bride of Christ. 
> Revelation 18:3 is similar in language to that of Revelation 17:2. "We 
> should note that in this verse, the action of committing fornication is 
> in the past tense. Therefore, it must be speaking about true believers 
> who in the past, while they were members of the visible church, 
> committed spiritual fornication. This is because they were trusting the 
> doctrines taught to them by the church. If any of those doctrines were 
> contrary to the Bible, that made those true believers commit spiritual 
> fornication. Of course, from God’s vantage point, they remained the pure 
> bride of Christ because all of their sins have been covered by the blood 
> of Christ. Once they leave the church and are no longer required to be 
> under its authority, that spiritual fornication can come to an end. 
> There is no possibility that this verse is speaking about the secular or 
> political kings of the earth. This is so because their spiritual 
> fornication continues regardless of what happens to the churches.
> In the same verse, God speaks of others in the church (Babylon) who are 
> guilty of spiritual drunkenness. They closely identify with those 
> described in Isaiah 28:7, where we read:
> But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out 
> of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, 
> they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong 
> drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment." (p. 300 End of the 
> Church Age and After, Harold Camping).
> 
> We also notice in 1 Peter 5:13 KJV, that a persecuted church identifies 
> with Babylon. Isn't interesting that in the original Greek, it reads 
> "The [blank] at Babylon, is elected together with [blank], saluteth you; 
> and [blank] Marcus my son." It seems God intentionally left out these 
> words so as to compel  the reader to fill in the blanks. This forces the 
> reader to understand what Babylon represents. By leaving out the words, 
> it seems God is underscoring the importance of the reader to understand 
> the meaning of Babylon.
> 


Regarding Revelation 18:2 and the statement that Babylon "is become the 
habitation of devils," this language appears to reflect the Old 
Testament prophetic pattern of total desolation rather than a structural 
shift within the visible church. When God judged historic pagan cities 
like ancient Babylon and Edom in Isaiah 13:19–22 and Jeremiah 50:39, the 
prophets described those places as becoming the haunts of wild beasts 
and demonic creatures to signify complete ruin. It seems more probable 
that Revelation 18 is describing the ultimate fall and judicial 
overthrow of an inherently anti-God system, rather than a holy 
institution that lost the Holy Spirit.

The phrase "kings of the earth" (*oi basileis tes ges*) appears 
consistently throughout the book of Revelation, and in every instance, 
it seems to refer strictly to earthly political rulers rather than true 
believers. For example, in Revelation 6:15, the kings of the earth hide 
from the wrath of the Lamb; in Revelation 18:9, they mourn the collapse 
of Babylon’s economic and political influence; and in Revelation 19:19, 
they gather to wage war against Christ. Because Scripture uses this 
exact phrase to describe secular authorities aligned with worldly power, 
it seems unlikely that Revelation 18:3 is referring to believers 
committing spiritual fornication through false church doctrine.

On 1 Peter 5:13, the Greek construction (*he en Babyloni syneklekte*) 
uses the feminine article *he* ("she who is..."), which grammatically 
points to the feminine noun for church (*ekklesia*) or the elect body of 
believers. Early Christians frequently used "Babylon" as a code word for 
Rome due to the severe political and religious persecution they faced 
there. Rather than an intentional omission meant to equate the church 
with Babylon, this appears to be a standard Koine Greek expression 
conveying greetings from the local congregation enduring trial under 
Roman rule.

Regarding the idea local churches have been fully abandoned by God, this 
seems to conflict with explicit promises given by Christ concerning His 
church. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus declared that the gates of hell would 
not prevail against His church, and in Matthew 28:20, He promised His 
presence with His disciples as they carry out the local church's 
commission "even unto the end of the world." Ephesians 3:21 likewise 
affirms that glory is given to God "in the church by Christ Jesus 
throughout all ages, world without end."

For these reasons, it seems far more biblically grounded to view Babylon 
not as the local church, but as the corrupt, anti-Christian world 
system—encompassing false religion, ungodly government, and worldly 
compromise—that persecutes God's people and will ultimately face His 
final judgment.



>>
>>> However, to conclude, if you think all of the research done by Mr. 
>>> Camping is incorrect, I am willing walk through any entry with you in 
>>> the book "The Perfect Harmony of the Numbers of the Hebrew Kings." 
>>> Please keep in mind that the dates of the kings' reigns derived by 
>>> Mr. Camping are in accord with secular dates such as those recorded 
>>> on the stelae in the British Museum. While Edwin Thiele made some 
>>> important contributions in understanding the numbers, he never was 
>>> able to harmonize them. According to published literature, Mr. 
>>> Camping is the first person in the world to have done so (https:// 
>>> drive.google.com/ file/d/1TVEoV6LQz0WcnpXRqMN8TOVxeattvNkI/preview? 
>>> rm=minimal)  unless someone can point out an error in his derivation. 
>>> On the other hand, Mr. Camping's derivation would  not come as a 
>>> surprise since at the time of the end "..knowledge shall be 
>>> increased" (Daniel 12:4 KJV).
>>
>>
>> I listened to family radio for decades, simply because they offered 
>> traditional worship music rather than contemporary, worldly music. So 
>> I'm familiar with what Harold Camping taught. He wasn't wrong about 
>> everything. However,
>>
>>       “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing
>>        follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD
>>        hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously:
>>        thou shalt not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:22, KJV 1900)
> 
> Yes he was wrong about the date of the return of Christ and the end of 
> the world. But his source of  information did not come from dreams, 
> visions, "Holy Fathers" or similar. He did not try to intentionally 
> mislead anyone. He diligently compared Scripture with Scripture.
> He always said don't trust me, only trust the Bible. Also the Bible 
> teaches that "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."


Recently, I watched a video of how he responded after his second 
incorrect date. He started claiming to the effect that Jesus came 
"spiritually", rather than literally. So while he initially sounded 
repentant, he then seemed to revert back to claiming he was right all 
along, but just didn't realize before that the coming of Christ would be 
"spiritual".

The problem I had with his interpretation was not only that he was 
confusing Israel with the church, calling the church corrupt and 
counseling people to come out of her, while I know all the churches I've 
attended are not promoting false or corrupt teaching, WHILE he 
simultaneously set himself up as the only reliable witness in this era. 
He had a global voice and he used it to lead people out of the church 
and over to his own counsel, which turned out to be wrong. That's a huge 
red flag.


>>
>> The Bible says that if the words of a "prophet" do not come to pass, 
>> he is a false prophet, he has spoken presumptuously. You shall not be 
>> afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:22). At least twice during my lifetime, 
>> Harold Camping predicted a date for Christ's return. He was wrong both 
>> times. That's not something that makes me want to get into a deeper 
>> study of what he taught.
> 
> Actually his only other prediction of the end of the world was 
> supposedly 1994. However, what media and critics often leave out is that 
> he put a question mark after the date 1994 on his book cover.


The 1994 book had a question mark, but his May 21, 2011 prediction had 
no question mark. When asked what his plan B was if that date was wrong, 
he said to the effect "there is no plan B". He was talking like it was 
certain to happen on that date.


>>
>> He condemned local churches as if they were Babylon, and counseled 
>> people to come out of her. Meanwhile, he runs a global radio ministry 
>> where he claims to offer people the right counsel. He set himself up 
>> as the sole voice to listen to, by trashing local churches. This is 
>> NOT what the Bible says. The Bible does NOT teach that God wants 
>> people to come out of the church. He warned in Revelation to come out 
>> of "Babylon" (idolatrous political/religious/merch-worshiping economic 
>> system of the world), but not their local churches (Revelation 2-4).
>>


> Based on the examples above and on all the verses presented in the book 
> The End of the Church Age and After, it is difficult to accept that 
> there is a Biblical basis for interpreting Babylon as a "political/ 
> religious/merch-worshiping economic system of the world."
> 
> 
> Again it is very difficult to agree with " The Bible does NOT teach that 
> God wants people to come out of the church" in light of the verses above 
> and those presented in the End of Church Age and After.


I remain convinced that the explanation I gave on this is biblically sound.


> The following references are referring to the same event as that spoken 
> of in Matthew 24:15-16: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of 
> desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, 
> (whoso readeth, let himunderstand:) Then let them which be in Judaea 
> flee into the mountains:..."


He was talking to Jews in "Judea" during the Tribulation (time of 
"Jacob's trouble"). Neither Peter or Paul gives any such instructions to 
the church or Gentiles in the epistles. See comments on 1 Thessalonians 
2 above: The temple has not been rebuilt. The man of sin has not set 
himself up as God the temple. My church does not teach or practice 
apostasy. The Thessalonians were being troubled by people who claimed 
the rapture had already come and they missed it and were in the 
tribulation. Paul was showing why they had not.


> The End of the Church Age and After p. 184:
> 
> Thus, the language that speaks of the loosing of the four angels who 
> will hurt the earth and the sea is speaking of the same event as the 
> killing of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. It is the same event that 
> is spoken of in Matthew 24:21, “For then shall be great tribulation. It 
> is the same event that is spoken of in Revelation 13 when a beast comes 
> out of the sea and a beast comes out of the earth. It is the same event 
> that Daniel 7:23 describes as the fourth beast that shall devour the 
> whole earth. It is the same event as that in the account of Daniel 8 
> where God describes the little horn that will magnify himself even to 
> the prince of the host and cause the sanctuary to be trodden under foot 
> for 2300 days. It is the same event as that described in Matthew 24:15 
> concerning the abomination of desolation that stands in the holy place. 
> It is the same event that is spoken of in Luke 21:20 which says 
> Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies.
> It is the same event spoken of in Matthew 24:2, in Mark 13:2, and in 
> Luke 21:6 where God indicates that all the stones in the temple will be 
> thrown down so that not one will be left upon another. It is the same 
> event spoken of in II Thessalonians 2:3-11 wherein God says that He that 
> restrains (restrains Satan), will be taken out of the midst, and Satan 
> will rule in the temple (the churches and congregations). It is the same 
> truth as that which is in view as God describes the destruction of the 
> ships of Tarshish in Isaiah 23 and the destruction of Tyrus and Zidon in 
> Ezekiel Chapters 27 and 28. It is the same event that was anticipated by 
> the trauma Jacob endured when he went to Egypt to escape the famine. It 
> is the same truth anticipated by the destruction of Judah that began in 
> 609 B.C. when the last good king, Josiah, was killed. It is the same 
> truth that is pictured by the destruction of the ship from which 276 
> were saved, as recorded in Acts Chapter 27.
> All of these accounts together with many others are vividly recorded in 
> the Bible. It is amazing how much language of the Bible is employed by 
> God to illustrate what will happen when the 144,000 have been sealed. We 
> can be sure that God is making certain that we do not miss the 
> significance, the importance, and the reality of this tremendous event.


In Revelation 1:19 John refers to the things which he had seen (vision 
of the resurrected and glorified Christ) the things which "are" (letters 
to the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3), and the "things which shall be 
hereafter" (tribulation events that will occur "hereafter" the things 
which apply to the church). This provides a general outline for the book 
of Revelation, that helps us organize the content and understand the 
chronology.

During the "things which are", John sends messages to the seven 
churches, regarding Christ's counsel to them (Revelation 2-3). In 
chapter 3, Christ says He will deliver the churches from the very "hour" 
in which the testing occurs (Revelation 3:10). He describes those who 
will experience the tribulation as the "inhabitants of the earth" 
(Revelation 3:10). Why mention "inhabitants of the earth", if you are 
not making a contrast with those who are not inhabitants of the earth, 
such as those who are in heaven?

The "hour" in which the testing occurs only applies to the "inhabitants 
of the earth". The church will be delivered from that very hour, not 
just from the tribulation. If the church is delivered even from the hour 
in which the tribulation occurs, then they won't be inhabitants of the 
earth when it occurs.

The word "church" occurs over 19 times in chapters 1-3, but then not 
again during the things which shall be "hereafter". In those chapters, 
God refers to the 144,000 of the tribes of "Israel", and people from 
every tongue and nation, but not to the "church". Why would he suddenly 
stop referring to the church as the church during the things which shall 
be "hereafter" his message to the church? Because the people in the 
Tribulation events are not the "church".

Before John is allowed to see the things which "shall be hereafter", a 
window is opened, and he is caught up into heaven. When the bride comes 
back with Christ from heaven to earth in Revelation 19, it again says a 
window in heaven was opened.

Matthew 25 shows that when Christ returns to earth with the saints, He 
will first judge the inhabitants of the earth. The sheep who believe in 
Him will come to His right hand (), and the goats will be sent to the 
lake of fire (). This means that only saved people will enter His kingdom.

Many OT prophecies show that during Christ's reign on earth, there will 
be births and deaths. At the end of the 1000 year reign, there will be a 
rebellion and many will defect from the King, then destroyed by fire ().

Yet Christ says that when He returns for the church, everyone of us will 
be transformed into our glorified bodies in a moment (). The church will 
have their glorified body when Christ returns for them. They will not be 
capable of giving birth to children, dying, or rebelling against Christ. 
This means those who survive the Tribulation to populate the thousand 
year reign of Christ, cannot be the church. They are Jews and Gentiles 
who believed but were not glorified when Christ returned for the church.

There is no reasonable explanation for who populates the millennial 
kingdom of Christ that I'm aware of, which accounts for the glorified 
state of the church at the time Christ returns for them (1 Thessalonians 
4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15), other than the pre-tribulation rapture view.

Conclusion: You're confusing Israel and tribulation saints with the church.

Meanwhile, many passages of Scripture show

The Divine Authority and Perpetuity of the Local Church

The Perpetuity and Victory of Christ's Church

(1) Matthew 16:18—"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I 
will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against 
it." (Matthew 16:18 ESV)

"My Church." Jesus Christ Himself is the builder of His church. He 
declares that the powers of hell will never overcome or prevail against 
it. The claim that the local church has utterly fallen, or has become 
the habitation of devils, directly contradicts this clear, unbreakable 
promise of the Lord Jesus.

(2) Ephesians 3:21—"...to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus 
throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen." (Ephesians 3:21 ESV)

"In The Church... Throughout All Generations." God is glorified in His 
church not just for a limited time, but throughout all generations, 
forever and ever. The church does not cease to exist, nor does it become 
entirely corrupt or abandoned before Christ's return, because His glory 
is established in it perpetually.

Proposition: Jesus Christ built His church, guaranteed its ultimate 
victory over the powers of darkness, and decreed that it will glorify 
Him throughout all generations.

The Command to Assemble Together

(1) Hebrews 10:24-25—"And let us consider how to stir up one another to 
love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of 
some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day 
drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV)

"Not Neglecting To Meet Together." God explicitly commands His people 
not to abandon assembling themselves together. He adds that they are to 
do this "all the more" as they see the final Day of judgment 
approaching. The claim that believers must leave local churches and 
cease gathering in the end times is a direct violation of this holy 
commandment.

Proposition: God strictly commands His people to continue gathering in 
local assemblies, especially as the return of Christ draws near.

The True Character and Purpose of the Church

(1) 1 Timothy 3:15—"...if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave 
in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar 
and buttress of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15 ESV)

"The Church Of The Living God, A Pillar And Buttress Of The Truth." The 
local congregation, where pastoral behavior, order, and ordinances are 
observed, is called the household of God and the support of His truth. 
It is not "Babylon" or a "habitation of devils." God uses the local 
church to uphold and protect His truth in the world.

(2) Ephesians 4:11-13—"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the 
evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the 
work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all 
attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of 
God..." (Ephesians 4:11-13 ESV)

"Until We All Attain To The Unity Of The Faith." Christ ordained local 
ministry leaders, such as shepherds (pastors) and teachers, to build up 
His body. This arrangement is appointed to continue until the final 
completion of the church's work on earth. This scriptural order cannot 
be set aside under the pretext of end-time events.

Proposition: The local church is God's ordained household, functioning 
as the pillar of truth and utilizing pastoral leadership to build up 
believers.

The Literal Interpretation of the Judean Warning

(1) Matthew 24:15-16—"So when you see the abomination of desolation 
spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the 
reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the 
mountains." (Matthew 24:15-16 ESV)

"Those Who Are In Judea." Jesus directed this specific warning to those 
living in the literal, geographical region of Judea during the Roman 
siege of Jerusalem and the Tribulation in the final days. To twist this 
historical warning into a spiritual command to "flee the local church" 
is an abuse of Scripture.

(2) 1 Thessalonians 2:14—"For you, brothers, became imitators of the 
churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the 
same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews..." (1 
Thessalonians 2:14 ESV)

"The Churches Of God." The apostle Paul praises the local churches in 
Judea as "churches of God in Christ Jesus." They are not rejected or 
replaced, but are set forth as models of faith and endurance for other 
believers.

Proposition: Christ's warning to flee to the mountains was a 
geographical instruction for first-century Judea and Tribulation Jews, 
not a command to abandon the local church.

The Definition and Nature of the Church

(1) 1 Corinthians 12:27—"Now you are the body of Christ and individually 
members of it." (1 Corinthians 12:27 ESV)

"The Body Of Christ." The church is not an earthly, corrupt organization 
that a Christian can walk away from; it is the spiritual body of Jesus 
Christ Himself. Because every true believer is a member of this body, it 
is impossible to "come out" of the church without attempting to separate 
oneself from Christ.

(2) 1 Peter 2:9—"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy 
nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the 
excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous 
light." (1 Peter 2:9 ESV)

"Who Called You Out." The word translated "church" in the New Testament 
is "ekklesia," which literally means "the called-out assembly." The 
church consists of those whom God has already called out of the world 
and into His light. Therefore, to tell believers to "come out" of the 
church is a contradiction in terms, as the church itself is the body of 
those who have been called out.

Proposition: The church is the spiritual body of Christ, made up of all 
believers whom God has called out of the world; therefore, a true 
believer cannot "come out" of the church of God.


-- 
Good News †

Our offense against God was completely paid for when Christ died on the 
cross (Colossians 2:14), and God openly proved this by raising Him to 
life (Romans 1:4). Because of this sacrifice, God upholds His justice 
while granting us forgiveness (Romans 3:26) and safety from the wrath to 
come (1 Thessalonians 1:10). This rescue is a gift of pure grace for 
those who believe (Romans 6:23). Call on the Lord in faith to receive 
His salvation (Romans 10:9-13):

How to be saved: christrose.news/salvation