Re: Israel is not the Church

On 8/1/2026 8:17 PM, Christ Rose wrote:
> ========================================
> Fri, 31 Jul 2026 22:20:10 -0700,
>   <[email protected]>
>   Noah Wang <[email protected]> wrote:
> ========================================
> 
>> On 7/7/2026 9:04 AM, Christ Rose wrote:
>>> ========================================
>>> Mon, 6 Jul 2026 22:23:20 -0700,
>>>   <[email protected]>
>>>   Noah Wang <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> ========================================
>>>
>>>> On 7/1/2026 8:56 AM, Christ Rose wrote:
>>>>> He twice predicted the return of Christ on certain dates, and was 
>>>>> wrong both times.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Bible says if someone's prophecy does not come to pass, he has 
>>>>> spoken presumptuously. He is a false prophet. You shall not fear him.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, none of the verses you quote say or necessitate the idea 
>>>>> that God is no longer using the church to promote the gospel in the 
>>>>> world, or that He has set the church or His promises to the church 
>>>>> aside.
>>
>> Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV:
>> Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, 
>> except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be 
>> revealed, the son of perdition;
>> Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or 
>> that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, 
>> shewing himself that he is God.
> 
> 
>       1. The man of sin has not yet been revealed. He has not set
>          himself up as God in the rebuilt temple. The temple hasn't
>          even been rebuilt yet. There is therefore no basis for
>          concluding the apostasy has already occurred.
Many  churches and/or congregations teach that the church is the pillar 
and foundation of truth from 1 Timothy 3:15 (KJV): "But if I tarry long, 
that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house 
of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of 
the truth."   The churches have effectively supplanted the Bible (GOD) 
as the pillar and foundation of truth. What is God's response?

"Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; 
Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit 
in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and 
not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:"   (The End of 
the Church Age and After p. 281). "The prince of Tyre represents the 
pastors, the elders, and the deacons who had been given the spiritual 
rule of the congregations. God warns these rulers in Ezekiel 28, verse 
2."  This is perhaps the greatest high place ever recorded. There are 
countless other high places in churches such as the use of phony Bibles 
(Catholic and Orthodox churches some 70 or 80 books in the Bible), signs 
and wonders, women pastors, bowing down in front of icons, not 
presenting the whole counsel of God, speaking in tongues and many 
others.  Obviously, if the church were the pillar and ground of the 
truth, its doctrines would be in harmony across denominations. Clearly, 
that is not the case.
>       2. This passage does not instruct believers to flee from the
>          apostate church. Jesus' told Jews in "Judea" to flee to the
>          mountains when the man of sin sets himself up as God in the
>          Jewish temple (Matthew 24:16; Luke 21:21; Mark 13:14), not His
>          church to flee from the church. We should not confuse prophecy
>          for the church with prophecy for Israel.

Please remember that Christ spoke in parables: Mark 34:4: But without a 
parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded 
all things to his disciples."

The Bible is spiritually Christ ("The Word became flesh.") Therefore 
every time we analyze any  passage we must consider whether God wrote it 
using  allegorical language. The above passage is clearly allegorical. 
Therefore we must ask ourselves what do Judea and mountains represent. 
In  Old Testament times, Israel represented the kingdom of God. At one 
time they were His chosen people to represent the kingdom of God. But 
they also foreshadowed what would happen to the churches in the New 
Testament era. Israel was the "...church in the wilderness.." In the 
spiritual sense, Jews in the Bible are identified as believers:

In Romans Chapter 2, verses 28 and 29, God declares:
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that 
circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is 
one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and 
not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

And where did Jews reside in Old Testament times? Did they not reside in 
Israel and Judah? And what happened to Israel and Judah because they 
refused to remove their high places? Did not God destroy them  and made 
use of the King of Babylon (picture of Satan) to destroy His holy temple 
in Jerusalem? Is not "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and 
for ever."? So that there is no doubt what a high place is in the New 
Testament era, God defines it in 2 Corinthians 10:5:" Casting down 
imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the 
knowledge of God, ...."  In other words any teaching that is contrary to 
the Word of God i.e., the Bible is a high place.

> 
>       3. The Thessalonians were being deceived and troubled by people
>          claiming the end times and rapture had already come and they
>          were left out. This passage shows that's not the case. What
>          you're telling people is similar: that the apostasy has
>          already occurred, so we should flee from the church.

Yes, it is possible that false teachers were saying that Judgement Day 
had already come. But also,  if we carefully read the passage, we note 
that it is in context of the end of the world i.e, 2 Thessalonians 2:8: 
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with 
the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his 
coming:..." God here is describing the end of the world and Lord Jesus' 
second coming. But before that happens, 2 Thessalonians 2: 3-4 records 
what must occur:  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day 
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of 
sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or 
that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, 
shewing himself that he is God." When the church has declared itself the 
pillar and foundation of truth it is effectively saying that is now God. 
In other words it has assumed an authority higher than the Bible/God. So 
Satan has taken his seat in the temple. We also see the high places 
across ALL denominations and there is no intent to make correction.


> 
>       4. My church does not teach apostasy. It proclaims sound Bible
>          teaching. If it taught apostasy, I would get out of that local
>          "church" and go to another one that proclaims the truth.

Even if your church did teach sound doctrine (which is most likely not 
the case), it still would not matter because the Holy Spirit has 
absented itself from the churches and is no longer applying the Word of 
God to hearts of people. "Returning to II Thessalonians 2, we read this 
warning in verse 7:
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth 
will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The word “letteth” is an old English word that would be better 
translated “restraineth.” The word “way” in the phrase “taken out of the 
way” is altogether incorrect. It is a Greek word that is found many, 
many times in the Bible but never, except here, is it translated as 
“way.” It is most commonly translated “midst.”
Many Bible scholars have correctly seen that the “he” who now 
restraineth must be the Holy Spirit. And “the mystery of iniquity doth 
already work” tells us there has always been sin or iniquity in the 
temple (the New Testament churches). But this mystery of iniquity has 
been restrained by God binding Satan (Revelation 20:2).
However, the time was to come when the one who restrains, who can be 
none other than the Holy Spirit, would be taken out of the midst. The 
question is, from which midst is the Holy Spirit removed in order to 
allow Satan to rule in the churches and congregations?
Obviously, the only possibility is that the Holy Spirit would be taken 
from the midst of the temple."   The End of the Church Age and After p. 105.

Also in Jeremiah 12:7 KJV, God foreshadows this desolation: "I have 
forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly 
beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies."  While the setting of 
the book of  Jeremiah appears to be a condemnation against the nations 
of Judah/Israel, careful analysis will show that it is actually 
prophesying about the churches in our day.

Furthermore notice the warning God writes in 2 Thessalonians 12 for 
those who remain in the church: "And for this cause God shall send them 
strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:."   .



> 
> 
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, since the church consists of those who are already being 
>>>>> saved by God, it's only reasonable that God has to save people who 
>>>>> are outside the church in order to bring more people to salvation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. Sending an article to more than six groups is considered spam, 
>>>>> but so is sending the same article to 20 different groups, 
>>>>> individually. This is considered even a worse form of spam than 
>>>>> sending one article to many groups, because it occupies physical 
>>>>> space on all the different groups instead of just one. You were 
>>>>> sending one article to a bunch of groups. Now you're spamming the 
>>>>> same article to groups individually.

What did God write in Joel 2:2?
Joel 2: 2 KJV: Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my 
holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day 
of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;


>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are a lot of arguments here. To begin with, you  say " The 
>>>> English Standard Version bases its New Testament on older and more
>>>> complete Greek manuscripts than those available when the Textus 
>>>> Receptus
>>>> was compiled...."
>>>>
>>>> It is important to remember that "older"
>>>> manuscripts are not necessarily more accurate. For example the 
>>>> majority of churches (Catholic and Orthodox) worldwide today use the 
>>>> Septuagint as their Old Testament. The Septuagint is verifiably old 
>>>> yet careful Bible students will recognize  that the Septuagint has a 
>>>> history enmeshed in deceit, contains a number of anomalies and has 
>>>> entire books added to the Bible. 
>>>
>>>
>>> The Holy Spirit inspired New Testament writers used the LXX. For 
>>> example, they used Kyrios (Lᴏʀᴅ) as an inspired translation for YHWH. 
>>> The KJV uses "Jehovah". You can't claim you believe the Bible is 
>>> inspired, then trash the version the Holy Spirit inspired apostles used.

The Septuagint: A Critical Analysis by Floyd Nolan Jones, Th.D., Ph.D. p.33:

For example, the “Introduction” of the 1970 Zondervan edition of the LXX
begins:1
“The earliest version of the Old Testament Scriptures which is
extant, or of which we possess any certain knowledge, is the
translation executed at Alexandria in the third century before the
Christian era: this version has been so habitually known by the name
of the Septuagint ...” (author’s emphasis)
The disturbing part is that the above quote proclaims that a B.C.
Septuagint is extant. The word “extant” means that something is in
existence today – that it is available, that it can be seen, handled and
used. And so we inquire, where is it – where may we find such an ancient
authority as to the true text of the Old Testament? The quotation
declares unequivocally that a Greek translation made around 285–250
B.C. is accessible for reference. Not only are we unable to locate any such
entity, we cannot even find any direct citation to it.
Upon examining two Septuagint Concordances for references, we are
astonished to find not one word from a Greek O.T. written before A.D.
120 that the Apostles quoted in the New Testament. There exist no
verses that any New Testament writer quoted from any Greek
manuscript written prior to 120 A.D. We do find about a dozen
quotations in the New Testament that match those found in Vaticanus
and Sinaiticus – but these two highly vaunted MSS were written nearly
250 years after the N.T. was completed.

Thus we stand perplexed and frustrated. We have examined the origins
of the LXX and found them lacking, full of fable, myth, and legend."


> 
> 
>> In Matthew 5:18 KJV, it reads "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven 
>> and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the 
>> law, till all be fulfilled."  Are not  "jot"s and a "tittle"s  small 
>> marks in the Hebrew alphabet?  Does it sound like Christ was referring 
>> to a Greek manuscript?
> 
> 
> This establishes that not one jot or tittle will pass from the inspired 
> Hebrew, not that the KJV is the most reliable translation. The ESV 
> mostly uses the Hebrew MT for the OT translation anyway.

Yes it is referring to the Hebrew because Hebrew was primarily the 
language of the Old Testament at the time of Christ.


> 
> I would point out also, that I'm not against the KJV. I used to be a KJV 
> only person, until I studied the sources and the circumstances around 
> the translations. I don't think people are going to be led astray from 
> God by using the KJV. If your conscience tells you it's the most 
> reliable translation, then go ahead and use it with confidence.
> 
> 
>> Even more glaringly obvious is the number of books in the Septuagint 
>> (Old Testament). It contains 50-70 books!  This alone ought to raise 
>> eyebrows of someone of sound mind.
> 
> 
> Due to the length of the copies, they broke long books like Samuel and 
> Kings down into 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, etc. Also, neither 
> the LXX nor the apocryphal books themselves, claim that the apocryphal 
> books are the word of God.

Yes exactly!  So that makes it even more preposterous that the Catholic 
and Orthodox churches use the Septuagint as their Old Testament (2 Tim 
3:16 KJV: All Scripture is given by inspiration of God....")

The Catholic and Orthodox churches declare that the Septuagint makes up 
the Old Testament of the Bible: 
https://www.google.com/search?q=Does+the+Septuagint+make+up+the+Old+Testament+in+the+Orthodox+church%3F&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS1121US1121&oq=Does+the+Septuagint+make+up+the+Old+Testament+in+the+Orthodox+church%3F&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRiPAjIHCAIQIRiPAtIBCTQ2OTEwajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&source=chrome.ob&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=Does+the+Septuagint+make+up+the+Old+Testament+in+the+Catholic+church%3F&sca_esv=122eeb694112fb29&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS1121US1121&sxsrf=APpeQnsJpRXinkU_WmHVSNDF-7uRO04W-A%3A1785655826603&ei=EvJuara7JP-nruEPoqyN6QM&biw=1600&bih=877&ved=0ahUKEwi2jPGptoGWAxX_kysGHSJWIz0Q4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=Does+the+Septuagint+make+up+the+Old+Testament+in+the+Catholic+church%3F&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiRURvZXMgdGhlIFNlcHR1YWdpbnQgbWFrZSB1cCB0aGUgT2xkIFRlc3RhbWVudCBpbiB0aGUgQ2F0aG9saWMgY2h1cmNoP0jAUVCSCFiJRHAEeAGQAQCYAWigAe0OqgEEMjAuMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCDKACjQjCAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgIOEAAY5AIY1gQYsAPYAQHCAhcQLhjcBhi4BhjaBhjYAhjIAxiwA9gBAcICBxAjGLACGCfCAgUQIRirAsICBBAhGAqYAwCIBgGQBg26BgYIARABGAmSBwQxMS4xoAeoPbIHBDEwLjG4B4YIwgcFOS4yLjHIBw-ACAE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Therefore the Catholic and Orthodox churches are using a counterfeit 
Bible, because not all "...Scripture is profitable for doctrine, 
reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness..."


> 
> Paul alluded to Greek philosophy and cited things from it which were
> true (Titus 1:12-13), 

Titus 1:12-13:
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are 
alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be 
sound in the faith;

Here is God is simply warning against false teachers. He is not 
mentioning a book nor is He even alluding to one.




but did not thereby endorse their writings as
> Scripture, or nullify his own God-breathed Scripture unreliable (2 Peter
>   3:16).
> 
> Likewise, Jude mentions prophecy from the book of Enoch, but this does 
> not necessitate that he considered that whole book as being inspired 
> (Jude 1:14ff.). He may simply have cited from it because his Jewish 
> audience was familiar with it, and some things in it were accurate.

Yes in certain parts of Scripture God does refer to other books and it 
is understood that He is not considering them inspired. On the other 
hand, the Catholic and Orthodox churches consider the books of the 
Septuagint as part of the Old Testament. They are not saying that these 
books are outside the Old Testament.


> 
> 
>> The book of Tobit in the Septuagint teaches that rubbing fish gall 
>> into one's eye while simultaneously blowing there into will cure 
>> blindness (Tobit 6:3-9).
> 
> 
> idem.
> 
> 
> 
>> That smoke emanating from  burning  a fish's liver and heart in the 
>> presence of someone afflicted by evil will permanently cure his/her 
>> affliction (Tobit 6:3-9).
> 
> 
> idem.
> 
> 
>> Doing good works ("alms") "purges all sin" implying that one can be 
>> granted eternal life in heaven by doing the same (Tobit 12:9). 
>> Whereas, the Bible teaches "For by grace are ye saved through faith; 
>> and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest 
>> any man should boast "  Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. Does it sound like the 
>> Lord Jesus would approve of the doctrine above?
> 
> 
> idem. I do not endorse the apocryphal books as Scripture. Neither does 
> the LXX. The ESV mostly uses the Hebrew MT for Old Testament translation.

But the Orthodox and Catholic churches DO consider the Septuagint as 
their Old Testament or part of their Old Testament.

God writes in Galatians 1:8-9:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto 
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other 
gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

> 
> 
>> Upon reading the first page of the Book of Sirach, one quickly notices 
>> anomalies. For example is there any book in the Bible that starts with 
>> a "Prologue"?  Who does the Book of Sirach say the author is? Who does 
>> the book of Jeremiah say the author is? Does the Bible teach that we 
>> should praise a physical nation that killed its own profits and 
>> perished because of unbelief? The book of 2 Maccabbes teaches that 
>> prayer and sacrifices can atone for the sins of the dead, whereas this 
>> is not taught in the Bible. It seems it should be clear that such 
>> Septuagint books do not belong in the Bible. If one maintains that 
>> they should be, then it seems the prophesies in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 
>> KJV and Isaiah 28:7(KJV) are being fulfilled  for those who remain in 
>> the church?: "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, 
>> that they should believe a lie: ...But they also have erred through 
>> wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the 
>> prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of 
>> wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in 
>> vision, they stumble in judgment."
> 
> 
> idem.
> 
>> Another major anomaly is the the patriarchal chronology of the LXX 
>> (Septuagint). "The Patriarchal chronology of the LXX can be explained 
>> from the Hebrew on the principle that the translators of the former 
>> desired to lengthen the chronology and to graduate the length of the 
>> lives of those who lived after the Flood so as to make the shortening 
>> of the life spans gradual and continuous, instead of sudden and 
>> abrupt. This fit into their philosophical concept of gradual and 
>> uniform change (pre “uniformitarianism”); a philosophy which embraced 
>> the basic precepts of evolution. That is, they were primeval 
>> evolutionists. Thus the dramatic life span changes, which manifested 
>> the historic results of the sudden catastrophic transformations upon 
>> the earth and all life due to the worldwide Deluge, were altered to 
>> eliminate such positive evidence which was contrary to their
>> religious-philosophic beliefs. (P.18 in The Septuagint: A Critical 
>> Analysis by Floyd Nolan Jones,Th.D.,Ph.D.).
> 
> 
> idem. The ESV does not use the LXX chronology, but the Hebrew MT.
> 
> 
>> As mentioned before, if one use uses the numbers in 1 and 2 Kings of 
>> the Septuagint, one will not arrive at the correct length of reigns of 
>> the Hebrew Kings. This alone, ought to alert a Bible student of sound 
>> mind that the Septuagint is not an accurate translation.
> 
> idem.
> 
>> For those reading THE SEPTUAGINT: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS by Floyd Nolen 
>> Jones, Th.D., Ph.D., it presents startlingly accurate information 
>> about the Septuagint. However, the writer does not agree with every 
>> detail Dr. Jones provides regarding the reigns of the Hebrew kings, 
>> nor with his interpretation of the genealogies in Genesis.
> 
> 
> idem. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach the Apostles "all things" 
> (John 14:26). The Holy Spirit inspired their interpretation of the 
> gospel in the epistles, as they translated it into the Greek (1 
> Corinthians 2:13; 2 Peter 3:16). The inspired apostles translated YHWH 
> (Hebrew MT name for God) as "Lᴏʀᴅ" (kyrios) in the Greek, just as the 
> LXX does. The KJV translates it "Jehovah".
> 
> Jesus also apparently used the LXX translation over the Hebrew MT on 
> occasion. For example,
> 
> Matthew 21:16 quoting Psalm 8:2
> 
> Hebrew (MT): "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained 
> strength..."
> 
> LXX / Matthew 21:16: "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast 
> perfected praise"
> 
> Evidence: When the chief priests and scribes were indignant at children 
> praising Him in the temple, Jesus quoted Psalm 8:2 using the LXX 
> rendering ("perfected praise"), directly applying it to His reception of 
> worship.
> 
> Matthew 15:8–9 quoting Isaiah 29:13
> 
> Hebrew (MT): "...their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men"
> 
> LXX / Matthew 15:9: "...but in vain they do worship me, teaching for 
> doctrines the commandments of men"
> 
> Evidence: Jesus confronts the Pharisees using the LXX phrasing "in vain 
> they do worship me," an explicit phrase present in the Greek text rather 
> than the Masoretic wording.
> 
The Septuagint: A Critical Analysis   p. 35:


Summarizing Kahle’s position, Dr. John H.P. Reumann states:2
“Professor Paul Kahle ... (1875–1964), ... argued that there never was
any LXX, at least until Christian times, and that our Letter of
Aristeas is propaganda for a revision of the Greek Bible which was
made in Alexandria”.
Reumann continues:3
“... The letter of Aristeas was an attempt to give this revision
authority by cloaking it with antiquity. ... when Christians (who
increasingly after the year A.D. 50 were Greeks who knew little or no
Hebrew) employed the Old Testament, they inevitably borrowed from
these varied Jewish Greek translations – the Pentateuch as it had
been revised at Alexandria, the book of Daniel as it had been
translated at Ephesus, and so forth – until they put together an Old
Testament in Greek ... which they called the ‘Septuagint’ after the
title from the Aristeas legend. ... the LXX is a Christian compilation,
and The Letter of Aristeas is a fiction designed to further the use of a
revision in Alexandria about 130 B.C”.
Some go much farther, considering the entire story of the existence of a
Greek Old Testament circulating in or around Palestine prior to the time
of Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion and Origen (150–250 A.D.) to be
nothing more than a fable. They doubt that a Greek copy of the Old
Testament existed at or before the time of Christ and His apostles.4
1 Gooding, The New Bible Dictionary, op. cit., (Texts-Versions), p. 1259.
2 John H.P. Reumann, The Romance of Bible Scripts & Scholars, (Englewood 
Cliffs, NJ:
Prentice Hall Publishers, Inc., 1965), p. 16.
3 Ibid.
4 Peter S. Ruckman, The Christian’s Handbook of Biblical Scholarship, 
(Pensacola, FL:
Pensacola Bible Press, 1988), pp. 76-93; Ruckman, The Christian’s 
Handbook of
Manuscript Evidence, op. cit., pp. 40-54.

This argument can be summarized  as stating that:
(1) The letter of Aristeas is mere fabrication, and there is no hard
historical evidence that a group of scholars translated the Old
Testament into Greek between 285–150 B.C.
(2) The research of Paul Kahle shows that there was no pre-
Christian LXX.
(3) No one has produced a Greek copy of the Old Testament written
before 150 A.D.
(4) Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion and Origen produced the first
“Septuagints” – that none existed before their works.
(5) The Septuagint “quotes” from the New Testament and not vice
versa, i.e. in the matter of N.T. – O.T. quotation, the later
formulators of the Greek O.T. made it conform with the New
Testament Text which they had before them as they forged their
product.
(6) After 1900 years of searching, archaeology has failed to produce a
single piece of papyrus written in Greek before c.150 A.D. that
any writer of the New Testament used for a “quotation”.
They further point out that the nearest thing to an Old Testament Greek
Bible found by anyone is the Ryland Papyrus (No. 458), which has a few
portions of Deuteronomy 23–28 on it.2 This piece of papyrus is dated 150
B.C. (questionable date) which is fifty to one hundred years later than the
writing of the so-called original Septuagint (see footnote 2, p. 56).


P. 53: Irrefutable Internal Evidence:
 From a Bible honoring frame of reference, there is strong internal
evidence that challenges the authenticity of the existence of a pre-
Christian era LXX or, more precisely, if such an entity had existed, Jesus
and His apostles did not use it. That is, there are various references in
the New Testament which clearly demonstrate that the Lord Jesus
referred to the Hebrew Old Testament rather than to the Greek Septuagint
or any other version.
(1) Mat. 5:17, 18: Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the
Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in
no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The reference to the “Law or the Prophets” is a reference to the two major
portions of the tripartite Hebrew Canon, (the third is called the
Writings). Yet more to the point, our Lord’s reference to “jot” and “tittle”
could only refer to the Hebrew and not the Greek Old Testament! The
Greek alphabet has neither jot nor tittle. Only the Hebrew alphabet
contains “jots” (the “yod” = y which is about one-third the height of most
other Hebrew letters) and “tittles” (small extensions which distinguish
one letter from another, as at the bottom of the b B from the rounded k K,
the top of the d D from the r R or the h H from the j CH).

P. 73:
It is almost superfluous to add, but we again do so lest the obvious be
overlooked, that the scribe penning the LXX must therefore be writing
after the completion of the Book of Hebrews, not before. He is using a
copy of that Epistle as an aid in his Greek O.T. translation and has once
again missed the cross reference. In so doing, he alters the accurate
ending of Genesis 47:31 from the Hebrew O.T. which he is using and
inserts the Hebrews 11:21 New Testament reading at the end of the verse
to bring them into agreement. He well may have believed that he had
corrected a “corrupt” reading, but instead, he adulterated and tainted the
true rendering as faithfully preserved in the Hebrew Masoretic Text.



> 
>>>
>>> The Textus Receptus relies on a very small number of late medieval 
>>> manuscripts. Erasmus compiled the first edition in 1516 using around 
>>> half a dozen Greek manuscripts dating mostly from the twelfth to the 
>>> fifteenth centuries. In contrast, modern critical texts draw from 
>>> thousands of manuscripts, including early papyri and major uncial 
>>> codices dating from the second to the fourth centuries, such as Codex 
>>> Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. The proximity of these earlier 
>>> manuscripts to the original autographs reduces the time frame for 
>>> scribal errors, additions, or alterations to accumulate.
>>>
>>> The Textus Receptus represents a localized textual tradition rather 
>>> than the full breadth of historical evidence. The manuscripts 
>>> available to Erasmus belonged almost exclusively to the Byzantine 
>>> text-type, which reflects the text as it was standardized and copied 
>>> in the Byzantine Empire during the Middle Ages. Textual scholars 
>>> argue that relying solely on this tradition ignores the independent 
>>> testimony of early manuscripts from other regions, such as Egypt and 
>>> the Western church, which often preserve older readings before the 
>>> text underwent stylistic smoothing and harmonization by later scribes.
>>>
>>> The Textus Receptus contains known instances of back-translation and 
>>> late textual insertions. Because Erasmus lacked a complete Greek 
>>> manuscript for the Book of Revelation, he translated the final six 
>>> verses from the Latin Vulgate back into Greek. This resulted in 
>>> several unique Greek readings and spelling variations that exist in 
>>> no known Greek manuscript. Furthermore, passages like the Johannine 
>>> Comma in 1 John 5:7-8, which explicitly states the doctrine of the 
>>> Trinity, are absent from all early Greek manuscripts and appear only 
>>> in a handful of very late Greek manuscripts, indicating they were 
>>> late additions to the Latin tradition rather than part of the 
>>> original apostolic text [note: I believe the Bible teaches God is 
>>> triune, but the way they inserted it in 1 John is not validated by 
>>> most texts, and appears like a scribal addition].
>>>
>>> The textual philosophy of the Byzantine tradition favors expansion 
>>> and harmonization over brevity and difficulty. Scribes copying 
>>> manuscripts over centuries frequently smoothed out grammatical 
>>> difficulties, harmonized parallel passages in the Gospels, and added 
>>> explanatory phrases or liturgical conclusions, such as the doxology 
>>> at the end of the Lord's Prayer. Modern textual criticism operates on 
>>> the principle that the shorter and more difficult reading is often 
>>> closer to the original, as scribes were far more likely to clarify or 
>>> expand a text than to omit or complicate it. The Textus Receptus 
>>> preserves these accumulated scribal expansions, whereas critical 
>>> texts seek to strip away these later additions to recover the 
>>> earliest form of the words.









>>>
>>>
>>>> Ultimately, what determines whether verses are accurate is whether 
>>>> or not they are in harmony with the rest of the Bible. If we compare 
>>>> copies with copies (compare Scripture with Scripture) then according 
>>>> to the Bible there will be no errors: Psalm 12:6–7. Also when you 
>>>> say " ...reflects the original words of the biblical authors," that 
>>>> statement should be challenged:the Bible teaches that there is one 
>>>> Author (not authorS), but many penmen.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's what I was saying. There's too much context to demonize 
>>> translations like the ESV, over it's use of a word here and there. 
>>> KJV only people see one word that doesn't match what they want, and 
>>> they pretend like it means the other translations is denying or 
>>> trying to omit key Bible doctrines. But then when you look in the 
>>> immediate context, the teaching is still there and not being denied:
>>>
>>> A clear example of this is found in Luke 2:33. The King James Version 
>>> reads, "And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which 
>>> were spoken of him." The English Standard Version translates the same 
>>> verse as, "And his father and his mother marveled at what was said 
>>> about him."
>>>
>>> Critics often point to the ESV's use of the word "father" to claim 
>>> that modern translations are attacking the virgin birth of Christ by 
>>> implying Joseph was Jesus' biological father.
>>>
>>> However, the immediate context completely refutes this claim. Just a 
>>> few verses earlier, in Luke 1:34-35, the text explicitly details the 
>>> virgin birth. Mary asks, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" and 
>>> the angel answers, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power 
>>> of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born 
>>> will be called holy—the Son of God."
>>>
>>> Furthermore, later in the same chapter, Luke 2:49 shows Jesus 
>>> correcting Mary when she refers to Joseph as his father, with Jesus 
>>> asking, "Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"
>>>
>>> The broader context of Luke's Gospel makes the virgin birth 
>>> undeniably clear, demonstrating that the use of "father" in Luke 2:33 
>>> is simply a description of Joseph's legal and social role as Jesus' 
>>> earthly guardian, not an omission or denial of doctrine.


https://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Differences_Between_Textus_Receptus_and_NaUbs




>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm open to discussing one of your statements. You say the Bible 
>>>> defines Babylon at times as "false religious system called Babylon." 
>>>> Could you please present your verses to back up your conclusion? 
>>>> Unfortunately, I do not have the time to address your other arguments.
>>>
>>>
>>> This pattern of Babylon representing a false religious system begins 
>>> at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11:1-4. The post-flood population 
>>> congregated in the land of Shinar with a specific religious and 
>>> political objective: "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower 
>>> with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves." 
>>> This was a direct rejection of God's command to fill the earth. The 
>>> tower was an attempt to establish human autonomy and a man-made 
>>> system of reaching the heavens, bypassing the authority of God. It 
>>> established Babel as the foundational archetype of organized, 
>>> institutionalized false worship.
>>>
>>> As the historical empire of Babylon grew, the Old Testament prophets 
>>> consistently emphasized that its defining characteristic was its 
>>> elaborate system of idolatry and sorcery. In Isaiah 47:12-13, the 
>>> prophet addresses Babylon's reliance on occult practices rather than 
>>> the living God: "Stand fast in your enchantments and your many 
>>> sorceries, with which you have labored from your youth... Let now 
>>> those who divide the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who predict by 
>>> the new moons, stand up and save you." Jeremiah 50:38 explicitly 
>>> links the physical land to its spiritual corruption, stating, "For it 
>>> is a land of images, and they are mad over idols." The Bible presents 
>>> Babylon as a place where false religion dictates state policy and 
>>> cultural identity.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, Babylon acted as a corrupting spiritual influence that 
>>> actively sought to assimilate God's people into false worship. In 
>>> Daniel 3, King Nebuchadnezzar sets up a massive golden image on the 
>>> plain of Dura and demands universal worship under penalty of death. 
>>> This historical event demonstrates the mechanism of the Babylonian 
>>> system: it enforces a false religious consensus, elevates man or 
>>> state to the status of a deity, and persecutes those who remain loyal 
>>> to the true God.
>>>
>>> The New Testament pulls these historical and prophetic threads 
>>> together in the book of Revelation, completing the portrait of 
>>> Babylon as the ultimate manifestation of false religion. In 
>>> Revelation 17:5, she is called "Babylon the great, mother of 
>>> prostitutes and of earth's abominations." The title "mother" 
>>> establishes her as the source and historical origin of all spiritual 
>>> prostitution—a term used throughout scripture to denote idolatry and 
>>> the betrayal of God for false deities.
>>>
>>> Revelation 18:23 states that "all nations were deceived by your 
>>> sorcery." This directly connects the spiritual deception of the end- 
>>> times Babylon back to the sorceries and enchantments condemned in 
>>> Isaiah 47. By tracing the concept from Genesis to Revelation, the 
>>> biblical text shows a continuous development: Babylon begins as a 
>>> localized rebellion against God's order at Babel, operates 
>>> historically as an empire driven by idolatry and the occult, and 
>>> culminates as a global, deceptive religious system that opposes the 
>>> truth until its final destruction.
>>>
>> We agree that Babylon was a sinful nation from the days in Genesis to 
>> the time they destroyed Judah. It is also true that they followed 
>> false religions. But the question is what does Babylon represent in 
>> Revelation 17:5, Revelation 18:2-5 Revelation 14:8 KJV, among others?
>>
>> You say Babylon is defined as "a false religious system.' In a sense 
>> that is true but it is not exactly the definition that is in view in 
>> the verses above. How do we know?  Notice in Revelation 18:2 it reads 
>> she has "become the habitation of devils...and a cage of every 
>> unclean..." meaning that earlier, her condition was not so. But we 
>> know right from the beginning after the flood that  Babylon was wicked 
>> and engaged in polytheism. Furthermore, notice the word "cage." "Cage" 
>> implies a physical confinement, not some abstract confinement of 
>> literary terms. In fact, the only other verse where cage is used is in 
>> Jeremiah 5:27: "As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full 
>> of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich." Also 
>> please note Rev. 18:24 KJV: "And in her was found the blood of 
>> prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."   
>> Where were the believers typically found during the church age? Was it 
>> not in churches and congregations?
>>
>> Further, notice that in Revelation 18:3 we read "the kings of the 
>> earth have committed fornication with her.." In the Bible, kings can 
>> have 4 different meanings (The End of the Church Age and After, Harold 
>> Camping, p.299): (1) Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords King of kings, 
>> (2)Satan (Revelation 17:12), (3) political kings and (4) the true 
>> believers (Revelation 5:10).  Therefore the only fitting definition 
>> are the believers. Inside a corrupt church, believers will be hearing 
>> and possibly spreading false doctrine, thus engaging in spiritual 
>> fornication. Notice also "fornication with HER [emph. added]."  The 
>> church is referred to a woman since the church is ordinarily where 
>> true believers would congregate. The true believers make up the 
>> Jerusalem above, i.e.,  the eternal church, which is the bride of 
>> Christ. Revelation 18:3 is similar in language to that of Revelation 
>> 17:2. "We should note that in this verse, the action of committing 
>> fornication is in the past tense. Therefore, it must be speaking about 
>> true believers who in the past, while they were members of the visible 
>> church, committed spiritual fornication. This is because they were 
>> trusting the doctrines taught to them by the church. If any of those 
>> doctrines were contrary to the Bible, that made those true believers 
>> commit spiritual fornication. Of course, from God’s vantage point, 
>> they remained the pure bride of Christ because all of their sins have 
>> been covered by the blood of Christ. Once they leave the church and 
>> are no longer required to be under its authority, that spiritual 
>> fornication can come to an end. There is no possibility that this 
>> verse is speaking about the secular or political kings of the earth. 
>> This is so because their spiritual fornication continues regardless of 
>> what happens to the churches.
>> In the same verse, God speaks of others in the church (Babylon) who 
>> are guilty of spiritual drunkenness. They closely identify with those 
>> described in Isaiah 28:7, where we read:
>> But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are 
>> out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong 
>> drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through 
>> strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment." (p. 300 
>> End of the Church Age and After, Harold Camping).
>>
>> We also notice in 1 Peter 5:13 KJV, that a persecuted church 
>> identifies with Babylon. Isn't interesting that in the original Greek, 
>> it reads "The [blank] at Babylon, is elected together with [blank], 
>> saluteth you; and [blank] Marcus my son." It seems God intentionally 
>> left out these words so as to compel  the reader to fill in the 
>> blanks. This forces the reader to understand what Babylon represents. 
>> By leaving out the words, it seems God is underscoring the importance 
>> of the reader to understand the meaning of Babylon.
>>
> 
> 
> Regarding Revelation 18:2 and the statement that Babylon "is become the 
> habitation of devils," this language appears to reflect the Old 
> Testament prophetic pattern of total desolation rather than a structural 
> shift within the visible church. When God judged historic pagan cities 
> like ancient Babylon and Edom in Isaiah 13:19–22 and Jeremiah 50:39, the 
> prophets described those places as becoming the haunts of wild beasts 
> and demonic creatures to signify complete ruin. It seems more probable 
> that Revelation 18 is describing the ultimate fall and judicial 
> overthrow of an inherently anti-God system, rather than a holy 
> institution that lost the Holy Spirit.

If we carefully study the book of Jeremiah we will come to realize that 
much of the book is a historical allegory. It is the true that the 
events did happen, but they were actually pointing to the end of the 
church age. Ancient Israel and Judah represented the Kingdom of God on 
earth  even as the churches in the New Testament represented the same on 
earth.


> 
> The phrase "kings of the earth" (*oi basileis tes ges*) appears 
> consistently throughout the book of Revelation, and in every instance, 
> it seems to refer strictly to earthly political rulers rather than true 
> believers. For example, in Revelation 6:15, the kings of the earth hide 
> from the wrath of the Lamb; in Revelation 18:9, they mourn the collapse 
> of Babylon’s economic and political influence; and in Revelation 19:19, 
> they gather to wage war against Christ. Because Scripture uses this 
> exact phrase to describe secular authorities aligned with worldly power, 
> it seems unlikely that Revelation 18:3 is referring to believers 
> committing spiritual fornication through false church doctrine.
> 
> On 1 Peter 5:13, the Greek construction (*he en Babyloni syneklekte*) 
> uses the feminine article *he* ("she who is..."), which grammatically 
> points to the feminine noun for church (*ekklesia*) or the elect body of 
> believers. Early Christians frequently used "Babylon" as a code word for 
> Rome due to the severe political and religious persecution they faced 
> there. Rather than an intentional omission meant to equate the church 
> with Babylon, this appears to be a standard Koine Greek expression 
> conveying greetings from the local congregation enduring trial under 
> Roman rule.
> 
> Regarding the idea local churches have been fully abandoned by God, this 
> seems to conflict with explicit promises given by Christ concerning His 
> church. 

Christ's  church is the eternal church i.e., the "Jerusalem above." it 
is not the local congregations  i.e., the "Jerusalem that now is."



In Matthew 16:18, Jesus declared that the gates of hell would
> not prevail against His church, and in Matthew 28:20, He promised His 
> presence with His disciples as they carry out the local church's 
> commission "even unto the end of the world."

Yes but is speaking about the eternal church i.e., the "Jerusalem 
above." Yes the believers are continuing to carry out the Great 
Commission outside the churches in obedience to God's commands. The end 
of the world has begun "For the time is come that judgment must begin at 
the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of 
them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17 KJV)

  Ephesians 3:21 likewise
> affirms that glory is given to God "in the church by Christ Jesus 
> throughout all ages, world without end."
> 
> For these reasons, it seems far more biblically grounded to view Babylon 
> not as the local church, but as the corrupt, anti-Christian world system 
> —encompassing false religion, ungodly government, and worldly compromise 
> —that persecutes God's people and will ultimately face His final judgment.
> 
> 
> 
>>>
>>>> However, to conclude, if you think all of the research done by Mr. 
>>>> Camping is incorrect, I am willing walk through any entry with you 
>>>> in the book "The Perfect Harmony of the Numbers of the Hebrew 
>>>> Kings." Please keep in mind that the dates of the kings' reigns 
>>>> derived by Mr. Camping are in accord with secular dates such as 
>>>> those recorded on the stelae in the British Museum. While Edwin 
>>>> Thiele made some important contributions in understanding the 
>>>> numbers, he never was able to harmonize them. According to published 
>>>> literature, Mr. Camping is the first person in the world to have 
>>>> done so (https:// drive.google.com/ file/ 
>>>> d/1TVEoV6LQz0WcnpXRqMN8TOVxeattvNkI/preview? rm=minimal)  unless 
>>>> someone can point out an error in his derivation. On the other hand, 
>>>> Mr. Camping's derivation would  not come as a surprise since at the 
>>>> time of the end "..knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4 KJV).
>>>
>>>
>>> I listened to family radio for decades, simply because they offered 
>>> traditional worship music rather than contemporary, worldly music. So 
>>> I'm familiar with what Harold Camping taught. He wasn't wrong about 
>>> everything. However,
>>>
>>>       “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing
>>>        follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD
>>>        hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously:
>>>        thou shalt not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:22, KJV 1900)
>>
>> Yes he was wrong about the date of the return of Christ and the end of 
>> the world. But his source of  information did not come from dreams, 
>> visions, "Holy Fathers" or similar. He did not try to intentionally 
>> mislead anyone. He diligently compared Scripture with Scripture.
>> He always said don't trust me, only trust the Bible. Also the Bible 
>> teaches that "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."
> 
> 
> Recently, I watched a video of how he responded after his second 
> incorrect date. He started claiming to the effect that Jesus came 
> "spiritually", rather than literally. So while he initially sounded 
> repentant, he then seemed to revert back to claiming he was right all 
> along, but just didn't realize before that the coming of Christ would be 
> "spiritual".
> 
> The problem I had with his interpretation was not only that he was 
> confusing Israel with the church, calling the church corrupt and 

Israel represented in the Kingdom of God in the Old Testament era even 
as the churches represented in the Kingdom of God in the New Testament era.


> counseling people to come out of her, while I know all the churches I've 
> attended are not promoting false or corrupt teaching, WHILE he 
> simultaneously set himself up as the only reliable witness in this era. 
> He had a global voice and he used it to lead people out of the church 
> and over to his own counsel, which turned out to be wrong. That's a huge 
> red flag.
> 
> 
>>>
>>> The Bible says that if the words of a "prophet" do not come to pass, 
>>> he is a false prophet, he has spoken presumptuously. You shall not be 
>>> afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:22). At least twice during my lifetime, 
>>> Harold Camping predicted a date for Christ's return. He was wrong 
>>> both times. That's not something that makes me want to get into a 
>>> deeper study of what he taught.
>>
>> Actually his only other prediction of the end of the world was 
>> supposedly 1994. However, what media and critics often leave out is 
>> that he put a question mark after the date 1994 on his book cover.
> 
> 
> The 1994 book had a question mark, but his May 21, 2011 prediction had 
> no question mark. When asked what his plan B was if that date was wrong, 
> he said to the effect "there is no plan B". He was talking like it was 
> certain to happen on that date.
> 
> 
>>>
>>> He condemned local churches as if they were Babylon, and counseled 
>>> people to come out of her. Meanwhile, he runs a global radio ministry 
>>> where he claims to offer people the right counsel. He set himself up 
>>> as the sole voice to listen to, by trashing local churches. This is 
>>> NOT what the Bible says. The Bible does NOT teach that God wants 
>>> people to come out of the church. He warned in Revelation to come out 
>>> of "Babylon" (idolatrous political/religious/merch-worshiping 
>>> economic system of the world), but not their local churches 
>>> (Revelation 2-4).
>>>
> 
> 
>> Based on the examples above and on all the verses presented in the 
>> book The End of the Church Age and After, it is difficult to accept 
>> that there is a Biblical basis for interpreting Babylon as a 
>> "political/ religious/merch-worshiping economic system of the world."
>>
>>
>> Again it is very difficult to agree with " The Bible does NOT teach 
>> that God wants people to come out of the church" in light of the 
>> verses above and those presented in the End of Church Age and After.
> 
> 
> I remain convinced that the explanation I gave on this is biblically sound.
> 
> 
>> The following references are referring to the same event as that 
>> spoken of in Matthew 24:15-16: When ye therefore shall see the 
>> abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in 
>> the holy place, (whoso readeth, let himunderstand:) Then let them 
>> which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:..."
> 
> 
> He was talking to Jews in "Judea" during the Tribulation (time of 
> "Jacob's trouble"). Neither Peter or Paul gives any such instructions to 
> the church or Gentiles in the epistles. See comments on 1 Thessalonians 
> 2 above: The temple has not been rebuilt. The man of sin has not set 
> himself up as God the temple. My church does not teach or practice 
> apostasy. 

Isaiah 4:1:
And in that day seven women (7 identifies with 100 % in the Bible) shall 
take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our 
own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

"The seven women mentioned in verse 1 identify with the seven churches 
of Revelation 2 and 3. These seven churches represent all of the 
churches and congregations that have come into existence throughout the 
New Testament era. The churches are called women because within them are 
the true believers who are the bride of Christ." The End of Church Age 
p. 252


The Thessalonians were being troubled by people who claimed
> the rapture had already come and they missed it and were in the 
> tribulation. Paul was showing why they had not.
> 
> 
>> The End of the Church Age and After p. 184:
>>
>> Thus, the language that speaks of the loosing of the four angels who 
>> will hurt the earth and the sea is speaking of the same event as the 
>> killing of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. It is the same event 
>> that is spoken of in Matthew 24:21, “For then shall be great 
>> tribulation. It is the same event that is spoken of in Revelation 13 
>> when a beast comes out of the sea and a beast comes out of the earth. 
>> It is the same event that Daniel 7:23 describes as the fourth beast 
>> that shall devour the whole earth. It is the same event as that in the 
>> account of Daniel 8 where God describes the little horn that will 
>> magnify himself even to the prince of the host and cause the sanctuary 
>> to be trodden under foot for 2300 days. It is the same event as that 
>> described in Matthew 24:15 concerning the abomination of desolation 
>> that stands in the holy place. It is the same event that is spoken of 
>> in Luke 21:20 which says Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies.
>> It is the same event spoken of in Matthew 24:2, in Mark 13:2, and in 
>> Luke 21:6 where God indicates that all the stones in the temple will 
>> be thrown down so that not one will be left upon another. It is the 
>> same event spoken of in II Thessalonians 2:3-11 wherein God says that 
>> He that restrains (restrains Satan), will be taken out of the midst, 
>> and Satan will rule in the temple (the churches and congregations). It 
>> is the same truth as that which is in view as God describes the 
>> destruction of the ships of Tarshish in Isaiah 23 and the destruction 
>> of Tyrus and Zidon in Ezekiel Chapters 27 and 28. It is the same event 
>> that was anticipated by the trauma Jacob endured when he went to Egypt 
>> to escape the famine. It is the same truth anticipated by the 
>> destruction of Judah that began in 609 B.C. when the last good king, 
>> Josiah, was killed. It is the same truth that is pictured by the 
>> destruction of the ship from which 276 were saved, as recorded in Acts 
>> Chapter 27.
>> All of these accounts together with many others are vividly recorded 
>> in the Bible. It is amazing how much language of the Bible is employed 
>> by God to illustrate what will happen when the 144,000 have been 
>> sealed. We can be sure that God is making certain that we do not miss 
>> the significance, the importance, and the reality of this tremendous 
>> event.
> 
> 
> In Revelation 1:19 John refers to the things which he had seen (vision 
> of the resurrected and glorified Christ) the things which "are" (letters 
> to the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3), and the "things which shall be 
> hereafter" (tribulation events that will occur "hereafter" the things 
> which apply to the church). This provides a general outline for the book 
> of Revelation, that helps us organize the content and understand the 
> chronology.
> 
> During the "things which are", John sends messages to the seven 
> churches, regarding Christ's counsel to them (Revelation 2-3). In 
> chapter 3, Christ says He will deliver the churches from the very "hour" 
> in which the testing occurs (Revelation 3:10). He describes those who 
> will experience the tribulation as the "inhabitants of the earth" 
> (Revelation 3:10). Why mention "inhabitants of the earth", if you are 
> not making a contrast with those who are not inhabitants of the earth, 
> such as those who are in heaven?
> 
> The "hour" in which the testing occurs only applies to the "inhabitants 
> of the earth". The church will be delivered from that very hour, not 
> just from the tribulation. If the church is delivered even from the hour 
> in which the tribulation occurs, then they won't be inhabitants of the 
> earth when it occurs.
> 
> The word "church" occurs over 19 times in chapters 1-3, but then not 
> again during the things which shall be "hereafter". In those chapters, 
> God refers to the 144,000 of the tribes of "Israel", and people from 
> every tongue and nation, but not to the "church". Why would he suddenly 
> stop referring to the church as the church during the things which shall 
> be "hereafter" his message to the church? Because the people in the 
> Tribulation events are not the "church".
> 
> Before John is allowed to see the things which "shall be hereafter", a 
> window is opened, and he is caught up into heaven. When the bride comes 
> back with Christ from heaven to earth in Revelation 19, it again says a 
> window in heaven was opened.
> 
> Matthew 25 shows that when Christ returns to earth with the saints, He 
> will first judge the inhabitants of the earth. The sheep who believe in 
> Him will come to His right hand (), and the goats will be sent to the 
> lake of fire (). This means that only saved people will enter His kingdom.
> 
> Many OT prophecies show that during Christ's reign on earth, there will 
> be births and deaths. At the end of the 1000 year reign, there will be a 
> rebellion and many will defect from the King, then destroyed by fire ().
> 
> Yet Christ says that when He returns for the church, everyone of us will 
> be transformed into our glorified bodies in a moment (). The church will 
> have their glorified body when Christ returns for them. They will not be 
> capable of giving birth to children, dying, or rebelling against Christ. 
> This means those who survive the Tribulation to populate the thousand 
> year reign of Christ, cannot be the church. They are Jews and Gentiles 
> who believed but were not glorified when Christ returned for the church.
> 
> There is no reasonable explanation for who populates the millennial 
> kingdom of Christ that I'm aware of, which accounts for the glorified 
> state of the church at the time Christ returns for them (1 Thessalonians 
> 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15), other than the pre-tribulation rapture view.
> 
> Conclusion: You're confusing Israel and tribulation saints with the church.
> 
> Meanwhile, many passages of Scripture show
> 
> The Divine Authority and Perpetuity of the Local Church
> 
> The Perpetuity and Victory of Christ's Church
> 
> (1) Matthew 16:18—"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I 
> will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against 
> it." (Matthew 16:18 ESV)
> 
> "My Church." Jesus Christ Himself is the builder of His church. He 
> declares that the powers of hell will never overcome or prevail against 
> it. The claim that the local church has utterly fallen, or has become 
> the habitation of devils, directly contradicts this clear, unbreakable 
> promise of the Lord Jesus.
> 
> (2) Ephesians 3:21—"...to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus 
> throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen." (Ephesians 3:21 ESV)
> 
> "In The Church... Throughout All Generations." God is glorified in His 
> church not just for a limited time, but throughout all generations, 
> forever and ever. The church does not cease to exist, nor does it become 
> entirely corrupt or abandoned before Christ's return, because His glory 
> is established in it perpetually.
> 
> Proposition: Jesus Christ built His church, guaranteed its ultimate 
> victory over the powers of darkness, and decreed that it will glorify 
> Him throughout all generations.
> 
> The Command to Assemble Together
> 
> (1) Hebrews 10:24-25—"And let us consider how to stir up one another to 
> love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of 
> some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day 
> drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV)
> 
> "Not Neglecting To Meet Together." God explicitly commands His people 
> not to abandon assembling themselves together. He adds that they are to 
> do this "all the more" as they see the final Day of judgment 
> approaching. The claim that believers must leave local churches and 
> cease gathering in the end times is a direct violation of this holy 
> commandment.
> 
> Proposition: God strictly commands His people to continue gathering in 
> local assemblies, especially as the return of Christ draws near.
> 
> The True Character and Purpose of the Church
> 
> (1) 1 Timothy 3:15—"...if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave 
> in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar 
> and buttress of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15 ESV)
> 
> "The Church Of The Living God, A Pillar And Buttress Of The Truth." The 
> local congregation, where pastoral behavior, order, and ordinances are 
> observed, is called the household of God and the support of His truth. 
> It is not "Babylon" or a "habitation of devils." God uses the local 
> church to uphold and protect His truth in the world.
> 
> (2) Ephesians 4:11-13—"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the 
> evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the 
> work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all 
> attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of 
> God..." (Ephesians 4:11-13 ESV)
> 
> "Until We All Attain To The Unity Of The Faith." Christ ordained local 
> ministry leaders, such as shepherds (pastors) and teachers, to build up 
> His body. This arrangement is appointed to continue until the final 
> completion of the church's work on earth. This scriptural order cannot 
> be set aside under the pretext of end-time events.
> 
> Proposition: The local church is God's ordained household, functioning 
> as the pillar of truth and utilizing pastoral leadership to build up 
> believers.
> 
> The Literal Interpretation of the Judean Warning
> 
> (1) Matthew 24:15-16—"So when you see the abomination of desolation 
> spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the 
> reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the 
> mountains." (Matthew 24:15-16 ESV)
> 
> "Those Who Are In Judea." Jesus directed this specific warning to those 
> living in the literal, geographical region of Judea during the Roman 
> siege of Jerusalem and the Tribulation in the final days. To twist this 
> historical warning into a spiritual command to "flee the local church" 
> is an abuse of Scripture.
> 
> (2) 1 Thessalonians 2:14—"For you, brothers, became imitators of the 
> churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the 
> same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews..." (1 
> Thessalonians 2:14 ESV)
> 
> "The Churches Of God." The apostle Paul praises the local churches in 
> Judea as "churches of God in Christ Jesus." They are not rejected or 
> replaced, but are set forth as models of faith and endurance for other 
> believers.
> 
> Proposition: Christ's warning to flee to the mountains was a 
> geographical instruction for first-century Judea and Tribulation Jews, 
> not a command to abandon the local church.
> 
> The Definition and Nature of the Church
> 
> (1) 1 Corinthians 12:27—"Now you are the body of Christ and individually 
> members of it." (1 Corinthians 12:27 ESV)
> 
> "The Body Of Christ." The church is not an earthly, corrupt organization 
> that a Christian can walk away from; it is the spiritual body of Jesus 
> Christ Himself. Because every true believer is a member of this body, it 
> is impossible to "come out" of the church without attempting to separate 
> oneself from Christ.
> 
> (2) 1 Peter 2:9—"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy 
> nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the 
> excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous 
> light." (1 Peter 2:9 ESV)
> 
> "Who Called You Out." The word translated "church" in the New Testament 
> is "ekklesia," which literally means "the called-out assembly." The 
> church consists of those whom God has already called out of the world 
> and into His light. Therefore, to tell believers to "come out" of the 
> church is a contradiction in terms, as the church itself is the body of 
> those who have been called out.
> 
> Proposition: The church is the spiritual body of Christ, made up of all 
> believers whom God has called out of the world; therefore, a true 
> believer cannot "come out" of the church of God.
> 
>