Re: Psalm 7: EBTC Insights

Christ Rose <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]: 

> ========================================
> Tue, 25 Aug 2026 01:51:44 +0000,
>   <[email protected]>
>   Mitchell Holman <[email protected]> wrote:
> ========================================
> 
>> Christ Rose <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>> 
>>> ========================================
>>> Sat, 22 Aug 2026 13:33:01 +0000,
>>>    <[email protected]>
>>>    Mitchell Holman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> ========================================
>>>
>>>> Christ Rose <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> ========================================
>>>>> Wed, 19 Aug 2026 02:20:22 +0000,
>>>>>     <[email protected]>
>>>>>     Mitchell Holman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> ========================================
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Why would any god make in "attributes"
>>>>>> invisible?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         • Invisibility is inherent to God's nature as a spirit
>>>>>         being.
>>>>>           "God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship
>>>>>           Him in spirit and truth" (John 4:24).
>>>>>
>>>>>         • God made his invisible attributes evident to man
>>>>>         through 
>>>>>           creation (Romans 1:20; Psalm 19), specific revelation
>>>>>           (Psalm 19; Hebrews 1:1, 2 Timothy 3:16), and by the
>>>>>           incarnation of Jesus Christ (John 1:14, 18; Colossians
>>>>>           1:15).
>>>>>
>>>>>         • If God showed men His full spirit glory without
>>>>>         shielding them
>>>>>           from it in the body of Christ, it would kill them:
>>>>>           “Then Moses said, “I pray, show me Your glory....He
>>>>>           said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me
>>>>>           and live.”” (Exodus 33:18–20, MEV)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note: I said "full spirit glory".
>>>
>>>
>>>> And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as
>>>> a man speaketh to his friend.
>>>> Exodus 33:11
>>>
>>>
>>> Just a few verses later in the same chapter (Exodus 33:20–23), God
>>> explicitly tells Moses, "You cannot see My face," and places Moses
>>> in the cleft of a rock, covering him with His hand so Moses only
>>> sees His "back" as He passes by. The phrase "face to face" in verse
>>> 11 simply denotes a deep, intimate, conversational relationship, not
>>> a visual sighting of God's unveiled shekinah-glory ("full spirit
>>> glory"). 
>>>
>>>
>>>> For I have seen God face to face, and my life
>>>> is preserved.
>>>> Genesis 32:30
>>>
>>>
>>> idem.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said,
>>>> Unto thy seed will I give this land:
>>>> Genesis 12:7
>>>
>>>
>>> idem.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And when Abram was ninety years old and nine,
>>>> the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him..
>>>> Genesis 17:1
>>>
>>>
>>> idem.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And the LORD appeared unto Isaac, and said,
>>>> Go not down into Egypt
>>>> Genesis 26:2
>>>
>>>
>>> idem.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And the LORD appeared unto Isaac the same
>>>> night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy
>>>> father: fear not.
>>>> Genesis 26:24
>>>
>>>
>>> idem.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came
>>>> out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
>>>> Genesis 35:9
>>>
>>>
>>> idem.
>>>
>>>> And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared
>>>> unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.
>>>> Genesis 48:3
>>>>
>>>
>>> idem.
>>>
>>> As noted, this was a reference to God's "full spirit glory"
>>> (Shekinah). In the places you cite, God appeared in a form which
>>> veiled it. God was not manifesting his "full spirit glory" in those
>>> instances, but a veiled form they could tolerate. These appearances
>>> are typical, pointing forward to Christ's incarnation, where God's
>>> glory was veiled within the temple of His human body (John 1:14;
>>> John 2:19-21; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 10:19-20).
>>>
>>> John 1:18 states: "No man has seen God at any time. The only Son,
>>> who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
>>>
>> 
>> 
>>      Yes, the Bible is full of contradictions.
> 
> 
> Your original question was to the effect why did God make His
> attributes invisible. The answer is because He's a spirit being, so
> He's inherently invisible to us, and because direct exposure to the
> full glory of His spirit face would kill men.
> 
> When the Bible says He spoke to men face to face, it refers to the 
> visible form God allowed men to see (e.g. Moses watching God's
> backside, and Jesus Christ veiling God's glory in human flesh). When
> it says no man can see me and live, it refers to the full shekinah
> glory of His face, not the veiled way He appeared to mortal men. There
> is no contradiction here, other than the one imposed by those who wish
> to suppress the knowledge of the truth.
> 


    The Bible make no reference
to "visible form God allowed men 
to see". 

    It say God appeared in person
and spoke to prophets in person. No 
reference to "full shekinah glory". 


> 
> 
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        It is your claim that people born
>>>>>> before Jesus should be condemned for
>>>>>> not following Jesus.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    From the time man sinned until now, God has always declared men
>>>>> righteous and delivered them from condemnation through faith in
>>>>> His promise of a coming "seed" (Christ) who would be their
>>>>> redeemer. 
>>>
>>>
>>> Note: It says God has always declared men righteous and delivered
>>> them from condemnation "through faith in His promise...". This does
>>> not mean that all men will put faith in God's promises and be saved,
>>> but that God has always offered salvation to all men through faith
>>> in His promise.
>>>
>>>>        
>>>> The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the
>>>> human race had become on the earth, and that
>>>> every inclination of the thoughts of the human
>>>> heart was only evil all the time. The Lord
>>>> regretted that he had made human beings on the
>>>> earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
>>>> Genesis 6:5
>>>
>>>
>>> Idem. They were condemned because they did not believe God's
>>> warnings 
>> 
>> 
>>      What warnings? Show us the pre-flood
>> warnings God gave to humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> God declared it:
> 
> “Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever,
> for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”” (Genesis 6:3, ESV)
> 
> “So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from
> the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of
> the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”” (Genesis 6:7,
> ESV) 
> 
> “And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all
> flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I
> will destroy them with the earth.” (Genesis 6:13, ESV)
> 
> “For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to
> destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven.
> Everything that is on the earth shall die. But I will establish my
> covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons,
> your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.” (Genesis 6:17–18,
> ESV) 
> 
> Noah warned them about it:
> 
> “...Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God
> protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a
> vast flood.” (2 Peter 2:5, NLT)


   Noah "warned the whole world"?

   What? 

   Everyone in China, India, the Western
hemisphere, Polynesia, the Arctic, all 
heard Noah's warning to mankind?

   And you really believe that?  


> 
> It says Noah warned them. He was a herald of righteousness. He was 
> building the ark for years in their sight.
> 
> They rejected the knowledge of God in creation:
> 
> Even without a specific warning or revelation of how to become saved, 
> men are justly condemned, since they deliberately reject and suppress 
> the knowledge of God which is evident to them in creation (Romans 1).
> 
> “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all
> ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness
> suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them,
> because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes,
> namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly
> perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that
> have been made. So they are without excuse.” (Romans 1:18–20, ESV)


   Romans 1 makes no mention of Noah. 

   

>>>
>>>>       The firstborn of Egypt did nothing wrong,
>>>> God killed them anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>        • How do you know the firstborn of Egypt did nothing wrong?
>> 
>> 
>>     The Bible itself shows they were killed
>> as a message to Pharaoh, 
> 
> 
> Yes.
>> not because they personally sinned.
> 
> How did you determine that?


    1) What sin had the firstborn committed?
  
    2) What sin had the firstborn animals
(also killed by God) committed?


> 
> The claim that any human being has "done nothing wrong" contradicts
> the clear testimony of Scripture. Romans 3:23 establishes that "all
> have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and Romans 5:12
> affirms that death entered the world through sin, spreading to all
> men. No person, in Egypt or elsewhere, stands before God in a state of
> inherent sinlessness or unmerited claim on physical life. God, as the
> Author and Giver of life (Job 1:21), possesses absolute sovereign
> authority to number the days of every individual and execute judgment
> as He determines. 
> 
> That it was also a message to Pharaoh does not establish that they 
> therefore had no sin. God concludes "all have sinned" (e.g. Romans 3; 
> Psalm 51). Consider:
> 
> The nation of Egypt had engaged in the systemic, generational 
> oppression, enslavement, and state-mandated murder of the Hebrew
> people. Pharaoh commanded in Exodus 1:22: "Every son who is born you
> shall cast into the river." The firstborn of Egypt included adults,
> household heads, and active participants in the Egyptian society that
> enriched itself through the brutal subjugation of Israel. The plague
> struck "from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the
> firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon" (Exodus 12:29). Egypt
> as a whole was under divine judgment for shedding innocent blood, and
> God repaid the nation according to its own measure.
> 
> The death of Egypt's firstborn was not an arbitrary demonstration of
> raw power, but the exact execution of a righteous judicial sentence 
> forewarned from the beginning. In Exodus 4:22-23, God instructed Moses
> to tell Pharaoh before the plagues even began: "Thus says the Lord, 
> 'Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I say to you, let My son go that
> he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill
> your son, your firstborn.'" Pharaoh and his people repeatedly refused
> to release God's firstborn, choosing defiance over nine successive
> warnings and judgments, thereby bringing the announced penalty upon
> their own households.
> 
> Exodus 12:12 states: "For I will pass through the land of Egypt on
> that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt,
> both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute
> judgment: I am the Lord." The firstborn held religious and social
> preeminence, often dedicated to Egyptian deities. The judgment was a
> direct, devastating strike against the entire spiritual, social, and
> political system of Egypt that stood in open rebellion against the
> living God. 
> 
> The plague of the firstborn demonstrated that all within Egypt were 
> naturally subject to the exact same wrath. The Israelites themselves 
> were not spared because of inherent moral perfection; they were spared
> strictly through the blood of the Passover lamb applied to the
> doorposts (Exodus 12:13). Any household without the covering of the
> blood—whether Egyptian or otherwise—fell under the righteous
> decree. 
> 
> The destruction of Egypt's firstborn was a righteous act of divine 
> judgment against a defiant, oppressive, and idolatrous nation that 
> refused repeated commands to release God's people.



     What did the firstborn children (and animals)
have to do with that?


> 
> 
> 
>>>          "Firstborn" doesn't even necessitate they were babies. The
>>>          first-born could have been 80 years old by the time of that
>>>          plague.
>>>
>>>        • “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of
>>>        God, and
>>>          are justified by his grace as a gift, through the
>>>          redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” (Romans 3:23–24,
>>>          ESV). "All" means "all". The Bible says "all have sinned".
>>>
>>>        • “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray
>>>        from
>>>          birth, speaking lies.” (Psalm 58:3, ESV) The Bible says
>>>          the wicked are estranged from the womb. They go astray from
>>>          birth. 
>>>
>>>        • “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin
>>>        did my
>>>          mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5, ESV)
>>>
>>>        • "...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his
>>>          youth..." (Genesis 8:21)
>>>
>>>        • "“What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born
>>>        of a 
>>>          woman, that he can be righteous?” (Job 15:14, ESV)
>>>
>>>        • ""How then can man be justified with God? or how can he
>>>        be 
>>>          clean that is born of a woman?" (Job 25:4)
>>>
>>>        • Justification with God requires God's declaration of
>>>          righteousness, not man's (Romans 3:20-24; Romans 4:3-5;
>>>          Romans 8:33; Galatians 2:16; Titus 3:5). God knows the
>>>          secrets of the hearts and thoughts (Hebrews 4:12-13). He
>>>          knows not only what people have done, but what they will do
>>>          (1 Samuel 23:11-12; 2 Kings 8:12-13; Matthew 11:21-23). We
>>>          don't. 
>>>
>>>        • Your computer is 100% free from sin. Does that mean it
>>>          "deserves" to stay in your presence forever? Won't you in
>>>          fact be just when you one day throw it into a trash heap,
>>>          away from your presence? Does it possess the inherent
>>>          righteousness to "merit" your eternal favor? Entering God's
>>>          presence in heaven requires not only a sin-free condition,
>>>          but also the personal righteousness of Jesus Christ being
>>>          imputed to your account (2 Corinthians 5:21).
>>>
>>> Conclusion: The Bible shows that "all have sinned".
>> 
>> 
>>       Does that mean all can be killed?
> 
> 
> It means God is under no moral obligation to keep men alive, allow
> them into heaven, or keep them out of the lake of fire when they die.

   
    And that the problem. 

    How can you talk about "divine justice"
while praising a god who has no interest in
justice?

 


> It does not mean men are authorized to murder at their discretion. God
> invests the authority of capital punishment to His governing
> authorities to punish evildoers (Romans 13).



     Wrong. Men CAN murder at their 
descretion. As long as they do it right.



     
When a man strikes his male or female slave with 
a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he 
shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives 
for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since 
the slave is his own property.  
Exodus 21:20-21 

>> 
>> 
>>        When God kills innocent people are they
>> barred from Heaven?
> 
> 
> God doesn't kill innocent people.


  All the children and "innocent pre-born"
God killed in Ye Floode were guilty? 

  Of what?