Re: The Holy Bible

On Thu, 06 Aug 2026 22:06:01 -0700, Samuel Spade <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Aug 2026 20:42:04 -0700, Samuel Spade <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >[email protected] wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 02 Aug 2026 00:35:54 -0700, Samuel Spade <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> >[email protected] wrote:
>
>(snip old stuff)
>
>> >> >The bible has many contradictions.
>> >> 
>> >> Give me an example. What you call a contradiction may fade away once
>> >> you investigate. 
>> >
>> >No man can see God and live (Ex 33:20)
>> >but:
>> 
>> Good examples. I don't blame you for calling them contradictions.
>> The answer is that sometimes angels represent God. This is not a cop
>> out. It's just the BIBLE'S way of talking in places. For example,
>> 
>> Who gave Moses the 10 commandments? Of course God you say. And I agree
>> when I read it. But note what the disciple Luke wrote:
>> 
>> -- Revised Standard
>> Acts 7:53  you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not
>> keep it."  
>> 
>> Thus angels stood for God, and gave the 10 commanments to Moses.
>> Remember, the Bible was not written in our century, but is thousands
>> of years old. Thus the wording of some ideas can be somewhat
>> different.
>
>This is your belief, and i don't doubt that it's quite
>biblical.  As a historical matter, it's doubtful whether
>Moses even existed, and archaeological evidence (or lack
>thereof) suggested the exodus never happened, and that there
>were no large numbers of Jews enslaved in Egypt.
>
>That's a different discussion, just sayin'.



On Thu, 06 Aug 2026 22:06:01 -0700, Samuel Spade <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Aug 2026 20:42:04 -0700, Samuel Spade <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >[email protected] wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 02 Aug 2026 00:35:54 -0700, Samuel Spade <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> >[email protected] wrote:
>
>(snip old stuff)
>
>> >> >The bible has many contradictions.
>> >> 
>> >> Give me an example. What you call a contradiction may fade away once
>> >> you investigate. 
>> >
>> >No man can see God and live (Ex 33:20)
>> >but:
>> 
>> Good examples. I don't blame you for calling them contradictions.
>> The answer is that sometimes angels represent God. This is not a cop
>> out. It's just the BIBLE'S way of talking in places. For example,
>> 
>> Who gave Moses the 10 commandments? Of course God you say. And I agree
>> when I read it. But note what the disciple Luke wrote:
>> 
>> -- Revised Standard
>> Acts 7:53  you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not
>> keep it."  
>> 
>> Thus angels stood for God, and gave the 10 commanments to Moses.
>> Remember, the Bible was not written in our century, but is thousands
>> of years old. Thus the wording of some ideas can be somewhat
>> different.
>
>This is your belief, and i don't doubt that it's quite
>biblical.  As a historical matter, it's doubtful whether
>Moses even existed, and archaeological evidence (or lack
>thereof) suggested the exodus never happened, and that there
>were no large numbers of Jews enslaved in Egypt.
>
>That's a different discussion, just sayin'.

Professor of Egyptology J. A. Wilson stated, 

“Egyptian records were always positive, emphasizing the successes of
the pharaoh or the god, whereas failures and defeats were never
mentioned, except in some context of the distant past.” (The World
History of the Jewish People, 1964, Vol. I, pp. 338, 339)

The Egyptians even lied about their successes, such as one particular
Pharaoh (I can't remember his name) who claimed to have
single-handedly by himself, with his sword killed thousands of his
enemies on the battle field, down to the last one. And he had that
ludicrous information recorded on various monuments etc.

And if the Egyptians didn't like what was recorded on the monuments
and things in the past, they would get stone cutters to go around and
remove all the information they didn't want people to see. Thus even
if the accomplishment of the enslavement of the Hebrews was at one
time recorded for boasting, it could have been removed by later
Pharaoh's who didn't want to be reminded of the degrading experience
their predecessors had with the Hebrews and their God.

Thus we shouldn't be the least bit surprised to not find any mention
of the Egyptians humiliating experience with the Israelites and their
exodus etc, in the ancient Egyptian writings remaining today. (Nor,
the highly involved Moses)

But notice the difference in the writings of the Bible, and how they
recorded their defeats and weaknesses as well as their successes etc.
That would be one earmark of truthful writing. 

But there is some mention of Moses outside of the Bible. For example
the writings of the 1st century historian Josephus in the work
"Against Apion (I, 38-40 [8])". He wrote:

"We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with
each other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two
and twenty, and contain the record of all time. Of these, five are the
books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from
the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver. . . . From the
death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of
Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the
events of their own times in thirteen books. The remaining four books
contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life."

So at least in the first century, there must have been some consensus
around that Moses was a real historical figure.

>
>
>> >God appeared to Abraham (Gen 18)
>> >Jacob saw God (Gen 32)
>> >Moses spoke with God face to face, as to a 
>> >	friend (Ex 33:11)
>> >Moses, Aaron & 70 elders saw God (Ex 24)
>> >God shows Moses his butt (Ex 33:23)
>> >   As illustrated by Michelangelo on the ceiling 
>> >   of the Sistine Chapel:
>> ><https://www.dailyartmagazine.com/michelangelo-warrior-pope-and-gods-bottom/>
>> >
>>  
>> See above.
>> 
>> >Who did Mary and Mary Magdalene see at Jesus's tomb?
>> 
>> Show me the Scriptures you are referring to.
>
>Matthew: They saw an angel.
>Mark: a man.
>Luke: two men.
>John: two angels.

When there is multiple Bible statements on a subject, it is the
differing writing style of the writer. If Matthew said 1 angel, and
John says 2, then just put them together. Then there was certainly 1
angel according to John plus a 2nd one. Thus there were 2 angels seen.

Luke 24:4:

-- King James
Luke 24:4  And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed
thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

Those "two men" were angels. How do we know? They had glowing cloths.
Also the women recodnized them as not being ordinary male Jews,
because of verse 5:

"-- King James
Luke 24:5  And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the
earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?"

They wouldn't act that way if they were ordinary men. 

The Bible tells us to REASON on the Scriptures. (Acts 17:2) If a
person doesn't reason on them, they can end up in the dark. 

Here is the account in Luke: Luke 24:22-24 KJV:

22.  Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished,
which were early at the sepulchre;
 23.  And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they
had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
 24.  And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre,
and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

So in Luke it wasn't 2 men but "angels", plural, which means at least
more than one. 

Where ever was your source, don't fall for it. They tried to trick you
thinking you are some kind of moron that can't reason on the
Scriptures

Thus in summary we have:

Matthew=  An angel (he talked to just one angel, when there were two
present)  (
Mark= Two angels (Luke said their cloths were glowing. Mark didn't
mention that and only recounts '1 glowing man' (angel) (Mark 15:46)
Luke= angels (Lu 24:23)
John= Two angels (John 20:12)


>
>> >How did Judas die?
>> 
>> Please show me the Scriptures you are referring to.
>> 
>> I did recall a couple of Scriptures was needed to get to the truth. 
>> Judas hanged himself over a cliff.  Then the rope broke and he fell
>> spilling his guts out. But show me what you think.
>
>Matthew 27:5 Judas hanged himself.
>Acts 1:18  Judas fell and his guts burst out.
>
>Two separate narratives.

Do you believe Judas just ran up to a cliff and jumped off?
When we reason on it, its what I said above. Matthew highligted the
hanging, but Luke (the writer of Acts and a doctor), focused more on
the physiology of the man.

You see, the gospels were not just copied. They each wrote what an
account meant to them. Thus there was no collusion going on here. 

>
>
>> >Also from a previous post by Mitchell Holman:
>> >194 Contradictions in the New Testament
>> ><https://www.slideshare.net/salehusman585/194-contradiction-sin-the-new-testament-of-the-bible>
>> 
>> If you want to give them to me one at a time, I will comment on them.
>> I do recall a couple of Scriptures that Bible scholars say was copiest
>> errors in the OT. It had to do with quantaties. (like 1000 chariots,
>> or 10,000 chariots)
>
>You can see them for yourself.  How bout the first one,:
>"1.  Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon.
>Mt1:6.
>     Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Nathan.
>Lk3:31"

Both Scriptures are correct. You might say, "How can they both be
correct when they are clearly a contradiction?"

Actually they are not a contradiction and here is why.

Matthew traces the geniology from Soloman to Joseph, Jesus step
father. This gave Jesus the LEGAL right to things.

Doctor Luke traces the geniology from Solomon to Mary's apparent
father, Heli. This gave Jesus the NATURAL right to things. 	

So there were double testamony as to Jesus' linage.
Thus there is no real contradiction here.
 
>
>
>(...)
>> >Orbital mechanics.  Newton explained the physics of why
>> >bodies orbit 300 years ago.  Nothing needed to "support"
>> >anything.
>> 
>> Who made the physics that Newton discovered? So to answer you in your
>> nomanclature, God made the "orbital mechanics" that keeps the earth
>> stable. (Gen 1:1)
>
>You are thinking God made physics.  I think Nature did. 

Yet 'nature', like evolution, has no brain! Yet it conjured up all the
forces to be used in a certain mathematical way to produce the
complicated laws of physics?? People put a lot of stock in random
chance. 

And if that is true, you should be able to go into the woods and find
a log cabin completely furnished with furniture, all the plumbing, and
even electricity created by mindless nature. 

God, the super mathematician, knows the working of things down to
infinite microscopics, and massive cosmic superstructures and greater.
No mindless thing can do that.

>Some,
>like Einstein, believed Spinoza's concept of an impersonal
>God who was the embodiment of the natural laws of the
>universe, and kept the universe following the laws.
>
>Whatever your POV, the discovery and theory of natural laws
>is science.  Who "created" natural laws is a question of
>religion.

Actually it is a question of logic. Naturnal laws are purely
mathematical and can be highly complicated. (at least for me)
>
>> >(snip flat-earth verses),
>> 
>> As I said, the BIBLE shows a spherical earth floating in space
>> attached to nothing. (Isa 40:22; Job 26:7) Yes, unbelievers want to
>> ignore that proof of Bible wisdom.
>> 
>> >but note this one:
>> >
>> >> >> >2 Peter 3:5
>> >> >> >For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice
>> >> >> >that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago
>> >> >> >and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Yes, I agree with all the Scriptures. What was your point?
>> >> >
>> >> >That the authors of the bible had a flat-earth, geocentric
>> >> >cosmology.  And they said earth was formed out of water.
>> >> 
>> >> Water? Not that I ever read. When it was created, it had a lot of
>> >> water associated with it. But wasn't made FROM water. 
>> >
>> >I just quoted it above. The earth was formed out of water and
>> >by water, 2 Pete 3:5.
>> 
>> (2 Peter 3:5) For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago
>> there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in
>> the midst of water by the word of God; (NWT)
>
>Plausible, but hard to fit into that box.  NWT and NIV give
>different understandings.

So does KJV and RSV. And NAS & NAB, etc. You need to see the best
Greek documents of that verse to see who was closest. 

>
>> That means there was a lot of water on the earth, and water canapy
>> above the earth. (high in the atmosphere) It was like Venus looks
>> today, except their clouds surrounding it are made up of sulfuric
>> acid, etc, instead of the earth's water vapor.
>> (I surely won't be sunbathing on Venus)
>
>Canopy of water over earth is impossible.  We're talking
>29,000 feet of water being stored in the atmosphere.  The
>pressure would be greater than at the bottom of the ocean.
>All that water (or vapor) would block the sunlight from
>earth.  The water would displace all the O2.

You are guessing about the possible outcomes. Let's try this: 

Water weighs about 8 lbs per gallon. How much would the water weigh in
a hurricane. How can something so heavy still hang in the atmosphere?
If I take a gallon milk jug, and fill it with water, and throw it high
in the air, guess what happens?

And try this. I have worked with Sulfuric acid before, and a gallon of
it is not light. A gallon is approx 15 lbs. So if a gallon of water
weighs around 8 lbs, and would be too heavy to surround the earth, how
can a liquid environment that is almost twice as heavy as water,
surround Venus?

>
>This is sometimes used as a what-if for Noah's flood.  It
>just doesn't work.

See above.

>

>
>(round earth hanging etc)
>> >> So in summary we have:
>> >> 
>> >> A spherical earth hanging in space by nothing. 
>> >> 
>> >> Not bad for B.C.E. sheepherders!
>> >
>> >Again, by the time most of the OT was written down, it was
>> >already widely known that the earth was round.  Certainly the
>> >Greeks knew it when they translated the Septuagint.
>> 
>> How do you know?
>
>Because they were educated greeks from Alexandria, a center
>of learning.  They knew that Aristotle proved the earth was
>round in 400 BCE, and that Eristosthenes measured &
>calculated the size of the earth in 240 BCE.

Good for him.

But the Bible outdates them. Isaiah ("the circle of the earth") was
written in the 8th century BCE.

The book of Job, around the 15th century BCE. ("hangs the earth upon
nothing"). How would sheepherders of all people, know such things?

>
>> 
>> But there is part B. God hanged the earth upon nothing.Did the B.CE
>> Greeks know that also? I do know that Aristotle teachings back then
>> taught that things in the sky, like stars, moon, etc, had to be
>> hanging from something.
>
>No they didn't know.  And the bodies don't really "hang", but
>it's close.  Even Ptolomy in 300 AD thought everything went
>around the earth.  The heliocentric model wasn't accepted
>until after Copernicus and Galileo, in the 1500s.
>
>> 
>> "Planets, the sun, the moon, and the stars were thought to be
>> physically pinned like jewels into transparent, rotating concentric
>> orbs centered on the Earth." (Aristotle teaching)
>> 
>> Aristotle said nature abhors a vacuum. Thus all of outerspace had to
>> be filled with things. (AI Overview)
>
>Gravity keeps space from filling up.  The vacuum wins.

Then 3 cheers for the vacuum.
>
>> >Thank you for your replies, James, I appreciate your time,
>> >effort and explanations.
>> 
>> Thank you for your beliefs.

Anytime.

Can humans really 
end all wars?
Go to: jw.org (8/11/2026)
[email protected]



>
>
>> >God appeared to Abraham (Gen 18)
>> >Jacob saw God (Gen 32)
>> >Moses spoke with God face to face, as to a 
>> >	friend (Ex 33:11)
>> >Moses, Aaron & 70 elders saw God (Ex 24)
>> >God shows Moses his butt (Ex 33:23)
>> >   As illustrated by Michelangelo on the ceiling 
>> >   of the Sistine Chapel:
>> ><https://www.dailyartmagazine.com/michelangelo-warrior-pope-and-gods-bottom/>
>> >
>>  
>> See above.
>> 
>> >Who did Mary and Mary Magdalene see at Jesus's tomb?
>> 
>> Show me the Scriptures you are referring to.
>
>Matthew: They saw an angel.
>Mark: a man.
>Luke: two men.
>John: two angels.
>
>> >How did Judas die?
>> 
>> Please show me the Scriptures you are referring to.
>> 
>> I did recall a couple of Scriptures was needed to get to the truth. 
>> Judas hanged himself over a cliff.  Then the rope broke and he fell
>> spilling his guts out. But show me what you think.
>
>Matthew 27:5 Judas hanged himself.
>Acts 1:18  Judas fell and his guts burst out.
>
>Two separate narratives.
>
>
>> >Also from a previous post by Mitchell Holman:
>> >194 Contradictions in the New Testament
>> ><https://www.slideshare.net/salehusman585/194-contradiction-sin-the-new-testament-of-the-bible>
>> 
>> If you want to give them to me one at a time, I will comment on them.
>> I do recall a couple of Scriptures that Bible scholars say was copiest
>> errors in the OT. It had to do with quantaties. (like 1000 chariots,
>> or 10,000 chariots)
>
>You can see them for yourself.  How bout the first one,:
>"1.  Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon.
>Mt1:6.
>     Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Nathan.
>Lk3:31"
>
>
>(...)
>> >Orbital mechanics.  Newton explained the physics of why
>> >bodies orbit 300 years ago.  Nothing needed to "support"
>> >anything.
>> 
>> Who made the physics that Newton discovered? So to answer you in your
>> nomanclature, God made the "orbital mechanics" that keeps the earth
>> stable. (Gen 1:1)
>
>You are thinking God made physics.  I think Nature did. Some,
>like Einstein, believed Spinoza's concept of an impersonal
>God who was the embodiment of the natural laws of the
>universe, and kept the universe following the laws.
>
>Whatever your POV, the discovery and theory of natural laws
>is science.  Who "created" natural laws is a question of
>religion.
>
>> >(snip flat-earth verses),
>> 
>> As I said, the BIBLE shows a spherical earth floating in space
>> attached to nothing. (Isa 40:22; Job 26:7) Yes, unbelievers want to
>> ignore that proof of Bible wisdom.
>> 
>> >but note this one:
>> >
>> >> >> >2 Peter 3:5
>> >> >> >For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice
>> >> >> >that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago
>> >> >> >and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> Yes, I agree with all the Scriptures. What was your point?
>> >> >
>> >> >That the authors of the bible had a flat-earth, geocentric
>> >> >cosmology.  And they said earth was formed out of water.
>> >> 
>> >> Water? Not that I ever read. When it was created, it had a lot of
>> >> water associated with it. But wasn't made FROM water. 
>> >
>> >I just quoted it above. The earth was formed out of water and
>> >by water, 2 Pete 3:5.
>> 
>> (2 Peter 3:5) For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago
>> there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in
>> the midst of water by the word of God; (NWT)
>
>Plausible, but hard to fit into that box.  NWT and NIV give
>different understandings.
>
>> That means there was a lot of water on the earth, and a water canapy
>> above the earth. (high in the atmosphere) It was like Venus looks
>> today, except their clouds surrounding it are made up of sulfuric
>> acid, etc, instead of the earth's water vapor.
>> (I surely won't be sunbathing on Venus)
>
>Canopy of water over earth is impossible.  We're talking
>29,000 feet of water being stored in the atmosphere.  The
>pressure would be greater than at the bottom of the ocean.
>All that water (or vapor) would block the sunlight from
>earth.  The water would displace all the O2.
>
>This is sometimes used as a what-if for Noah's flood.  It
>just doesn't work.
>
>
>(round earth hanging etc)
>> >> So in summary we have:
>> >> 
>> >> A spherical earth hanging in space by nothing. 
>> >> 
>> >> Not bad for B.C.E. sheepherders!
>> >
>> >Again, by the time most of the OT was written down, it was
>> >already widely known that the earth was round.  Certainly the
>> >Greeks knew it when they translated the Septuagint.
>> 
>> How do you know?
>
>Because they were educated greeks from Alexandria, a center
>of learning.  They knew that Aristotle proved the earth was
>round in 400 BCE, and that Eristosthenes measured &
>calculated the size of the earth in 240 BCE.
>
>> 
>> But there is part B. God hanged the earth upon nothing.Did the B.CE
>> Greeks know that also? I do know that Aristotle teachings back then
>> taught that things in the sky, like stars, moon, etc, had to be
>> hanging from something.
>
>No they didn't know.  And the bodies don't really "hang", but
>it's close.  Even Ptolomy in 300 AD thought everything went
>around the earth.  The heliocentric model wasn't accepted
>until after Copernicus and Galileo, in the 1500s.
>
>> 
>> "Planets, the sun, the moon, and the stars were thought to be
>> physically pinned like jewels into transparent, rotating concentric
>> orbs centered on the Earth." (Aristotle teaching)
>> 
>> Aristotle said nature abhors a vacuum. Thus all of outerspace had to
>> be filled with things. (AI Overview)
>
>Gravity keeps space from filling up.  The vacuum wins.
>
>> >Thank you for your replies, James, I appreciate your time,
>> >effort and explanations.
>> 
>> Thank you for your beliefs.