Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks

On 8/4/26 13:53, rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 10:44:03 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> 
> 
>> I did a training course on them on 2002 and they certainly taught me
>> ladder language (can be changed to text something). Coming from standard
>> digital electronics, it is very weird on start, but then you grasp the
>> idea and it is very useful.

   I hate traditional "ladder" - just
   doesn't grok very well. DO kinda
   Get It, but ......

   Anything I do from now on will be
   uC/mP based. Even using Python the
   challenge is a VERY low bar now and
   easy to document.

> When I started out I worked with physical relay logic. There were large
> NEMA 12 cabinets filled with octal relays,
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4_uSYorMQk


   Heh - DO remember those. Even MADE versions,
   albeit for often simpler needs. DO like the
   clicky-click of the relays though. Logic
   you can literally HEAR !  :-)


> A timer required a 3 1/4" hole in the panel to mount it, enter the
> Greenlee hydraulic hole punch. The schematic on the drawing board was a
> ladder diagram. Debugging, so to speak, was done with a roll of 16 gauge
> MW wire, strippers, and a screwdriver.
> 
> I never worked with PLCs and went directly to MCUs programmed either in
> assembler or FORTH. Despite its drawbacks FORTH is really useful for
> creating a domain specific 'language'.

   FORTH can be very useful and simple. You can
   run it on a fairly low-end microcontroller.

   It's almost Gone Away these days - a mistake.
   Damned 'academics' always over-complicate ...

   Have a married-in relative, astronomer. He
   is WELL versed in using FORTH to control
   instruments. It's maybe all we have in common,
   but it's something.

   ALWAYS install a version of FORTH on every
   platform I use. Haven't used it lately, but
   it's THERE if I want it.

   Odd compilers - look into "TCC" - a very
   nice tiny 'C' compiler. CodeBlocks
   understands it. Small/simple/fast code.

> However industrial electricians had worked with relay logic for years,
> were familiar with the schematics, and were adept at trouble shooting. I
> thought the ladder interface was to ease them into the brave new world but
> it seems to have stuck. In it's way it was the original no-code IDE where
> you drag boxes around and connect them with no idea of what code is being
> generated.

   Relay logic isn't THAT transparent. If it's
   really SIMPLE then yes ... but not when it
   get really detailed. The common 'ladder'
   diagrams - I find them NOT informative,
   a poor rep of what's going on IMHO.

   These days ... I'll use uC/computer logic
   for controlling complex processes. No,
   using Python or whatever is NOT too hard.
   Joe Electrician may not get it, but the
   equiv of a giant box of relays is NO
   better. DONE those ...

   Tutorials on-line always tell you about very
   SIMPLE cases. It's not always like that.

>> It would not surprise me that they can be connected "somehow" to the LAN
>> so that you can adjust parameters. Think of traffic lights, the city
>> control room adjusts the timings according to hour or actual traffic
>> conditions. Or they can obtain data which you want to save on computers.
> 
> I doubt very much they are air gapped. A Mossad agent may have destroyed
> the Iranian centrifuges with a thumb drive but no way are people sneaking
> into multiple water plants.
> 
> There is a huge body of apocalyptic literature but those scenarios are
> fiction, aren't they?

   Ummm ... maybe NOT so much 'fiction' anymore ...

   What can we DO about that, if anything ......

   This is kind of an 'existential' issue now.