Re: [OT] Apache::DBI

No apology please.  In terms of trying to qualify any of this, a larger 
statistical pool is better.  And I am no authority.  My perceptions are 
largely based on forum postings which causes an inherent bias.

I'd love to see this conversation continue, especially if participants 
included those who commit significant resources to their technology 
decisions.  In other words, people who hire and pay Perl programmers.
They're likely to be as skeptical as I am.  I've never been a cheerleader.

In their absence, I'd note that your post has an interesting ambiguity: Is 
the number of unsupported modules 2.5% or 25%?  (For more rhetorical 
nit-picking, you probably don't use the ones that don't work :)  Also, the 
significant question seems to be whether Apache::DBI is supported or not. 
From Mr. Zheng's point-of-view (in this case, the one that matters) the 
number might be much higher.

  -Jim

On Fri, 31 May 2013, André Warnier wrote:

> Just butting in, apologies.
>
> It may not have been Jim's intention below, but I get the impression that his 
> comments on CPAN are a bit harsh.
>
> It is true that a number of modules are apparently no longer supported.  I 
> have used many modules over the years, and sometimes have had problems with 
> some of them (mostly not though). And when for these problematic cases, I 
> have tried to get help, the results have beem mixed; but the mix for me has 
> been rather good. I would say that in my case, 90% of the CPAN modules I ever 
> used worked out of the box.  For the 10% remaining, in 75% of the cases I did 
> get help from the person advertised as the author or the maintainer, and in 
> 25% of cases I never got a response.
> But then, as Jim himself indicated, people move on, without necessarily 
> changing their email addresses.  Considering how old some of these modules 
> are, I guess people also retire, or even pass away.
>
> But the fact of the matter is that CPAN is still an incredible resource, 
> unequalled in my view by any other similar module library of any other 
> language anywhere. And I find it amazing that at least 90% of the modules 
> which I have downloaded from CPAN and used over the last 15 years, just work, 
> and moreover keep on working through many, many iterations of programs and 
> perl versions, and that in fact one very rarely needs additional support for 
> them.  When I compare this with other programming languages and support 
> libraries, I believe we perl programmers are incredibly spoiled.
>
> Another area where CPAN shines, is the documentation of most modules.  I 
> cannot count the times where I was faced with a request in an area of which I 
> knew nothing at all, and have just browsed CPAN for modules related to that 
> area, just to read their documentation and get at least an idea of what this 
> was all about.
> In recent years, Wikipedia may slowly becoming a runner-up, in terms of 
> general information.  But when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of 
> interfacing with whatever API (or lack of ditto) programmers in their most 
> delirious moments might have come up with, these CPAN modules are unbeatable. 
> Even if after that you decide to program your stuff in another language than 
> perl, it's still useful.
> (Just for fun, go into CPAN and search for "NATO" (or more pragmatically, for 
> "sharepoint" e.g.)(or even, God forbid, for "Google" or "Facebook" ;-)); who 
> thinks of such things ?)
>
> So, to summarise : that some modules on CPAN would be marked as "maintained" 
> or "supported" and would turn out on closer inspection not to really be 
> anymore, I find this a very small price to pay for the wealth of good 
> information and working code that lives there.
>
> My sincerest thanks to CPAN and all its contributors and maintainers over the 
> years (that includes you of course, Jim).  What you have done and are doing 
> is of incredible benefit to many, many programmers worldwide.
>
> André
>
>
> Jim Schueler wrote:
>> I still use Alpine.  And they never fixed the bug where ctrl-c (to cancel a 
>> message) and ctrl-x (to send) are so easily confused.  Oops.  Maybe it's 
>> time to start using a mouse.
>> 
>> Having wasted so much time, I'll try to be succinct:
>>
>>   Most modules on CPAN are bascially throwaways and not supported at all.
>>   Use them at your own risk.
>>
>>   There are some modules that are just obsolete.  Good intentions aside,
>>   the developers lost interest and moved on.  These are less risky if
>>   there's an established user base.
>>
>>   There are some very good modules, widely used, that are fully supported
>>   and perfectly safe for a production environment.
>> 
>> Most mod_perl modules, especially the core modules, fall into that last, 
>> gold standard, category.  In many cases, support is transferred from one 
>> individual to another.  And so that commitment is documented.  But if a 
>> module is no longer supported, don't lie about it.  Support forums are an 
>> incredible resource.  But if commercial software developers similarly 
>> blurred this distinction, every p.o.s. would be advertising free 24x7 tech 
>> support.
>> 
>> Apache::DBI seems like a #2 pretending to be a #3.  On the basis of your 
>> response, I've concluded that Apache::DBI is no longer supported and has 
>> been superceded by newer modules.  Especially if no one responds and 
>> explicitly accepts the responsibility, this seems like the most appropriate 
>> answer for the poster of the original thread.
>> 
>> I owe you a :) from a couple posts ago.  :)
>>
>>  -Jim
>> 
>> On Fri, 31 May 2013, Perrin Harkins wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Jim,
>>> I appreciate the thought, but I'm not the mod_perl list.  If you look at 
>>> who
>>> has done the most support around here recently, it's probably Torsten.
>>>  (Thanks Torsten!)  More to the point, there are many people on the list 
>>> who
>>> know enough perl to help with a question about Apache::DBI.  It's a common
>>> practice to point people here for support on mod_perl modules.
>>> 
>>> What are you getting at?  Is there a module that you're having trouble 
>>> with
>>> and can't get support for?
>>> 
>>> - Perrin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Jim Schueler <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>       There's an existing thread with an Apache::DBI question.  But
>>>       since I want to post a separate question to this list, I decided
>>>       to start a new thread.
>>>
>>>       Just got done reading the Man page for Apache::DBI.  One of the
>>>       last notes suggests that this package is obsolete (having been
>>>       replaced by Class::DBI or DBIx::CLASS).  Beyond that is the
>>>       following:
>>>
>>>         Edmund Mergl was the original author of Apache::DBI. It is now
>>>       supported
>>>         and maintained by the modperl mailinglist, see the mod_perl
>>>       documentation
>>>         for instructions on how to subscribe.
>>>
>>>       Unless Perrin Harkins agreed to take over support for this
>>>       module, then that statement is not true.  Otherwise, out of
>>>       respect for Perrin, I'll try to be general.
>>>
>>>       (Aside:  Am I the only developer that comes across 'unless () {}
>>>       else {}' constructions?)
>>>
>>>       It seems very few distros on CPAN are actually supported.  For
>>>       my part, I still monitor this list to support my own
>>>       contributions from *many* years ago.  And I k
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>