Re: Spatial/Atmos on FLAC?
=?windows-1257?Q?Renatas_Lau=FEadis?= <[email protected]> Tue, 22 Aug 2017 10:58:18 +0000
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--===============1169548415924526555== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY4PR1001MB2277E580DE8A0C042157B600A2840CY4PR1001MB2277_" --_000_CY4PR1001MB2277E580DE8A0C042157B600A2840CY4PR1001MB2277_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hm, "Atmos presumably has it's own lossy compression=94 =96 maybe. But what abo= ut Atmos in TrueHD or Atmos in LPCM? Spatial audio: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-reality/spatial_sound https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-reality/spatial_sound_i= n_directx There is a set of HRTF functions - head-relative transfer functions There are basically 3 major formats DTS:X, Atmos and Auro 3D. One of the major obstacles for VR/AR headsets is the sound and proper posit= ioning of sound. IMHO, this is one of the reasons why Microsoft is bringing= Dolby Atmos to Windows platform. And this is one of the reasons Microsoft = has implemented Windows Sonic at the same time. There are no popular mechan= isms to position objects based audio in some kind unified way. Windows Soni= c is now one such technology. While Windows Sonic rendering exists there is now format for this kind of f= iles, except Atmos and DTS:X. Sony does their own implementation. So I thought maybe FLAC or Xiph.org has some plans for that... Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for Window= s 10 From: Brian Willoughby<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: 2017 m. rugpj=FB=E8io 12 d., =F0e=F0tadienis 12:45 To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Flac] Spatial/Atmos on FLAC? On Aug 10, 2017, at 5:46 AM, Renatas Lau?adis <[email protected]> wrote: > are there any plans for FLAC to implement spatial audio? Or maybe Atmos o= n FLAC? FLAC is a multichannel audio format supporting up to 8 channels. There are = advantages to compressing 2 channel (stereo) audio in terms of file size sa= vings, but there is no compression advantage to other combinations. Atmos supports up to 128 channels, 10-channel minimum, so it cannot be dire= ctly stored in FLAC due to the 8-channel limit. In addition, Atmos presumab= ly has it's own lossy compression, so it would be pointless to use a lossle= ss conversion for a lossy surround file. Atmos is also proprietary, or at l= east I assume we do not have the option of supporting it anyway. I do not see any documentation of Spatial - is that a standard format? Is i= t an open format? Is it even intended to be distributed as a separate digit= al file? In any event, archival and delivery for mastering of surround audio is gene= rally done in individual mono files. Some surround projects are delivered o= n 8-channel digital audio tape with only 6 channels used in the case of 5.1= surround audio. Beyond 5.1, there must be various methods of delivering au= dio. There might be some advantage with FLAC to combine pairs in surround, = such as front, side, rear, but otherwise I would say that it's a bad idea t= o try and place more than 2 channels in a single file. The audio frames bec= ome too large to compress well. There's a difference between formats used for recording, mixing, and master= ing versus formats used for delivery of the final product to consumers. Del= ivery formats like Dolby and DTS generally require licensed software compre= ssion tools, making it difficult to convert to FLAC in any case. Perhaps you could explain more about what you hope to see? Brian Willoughby _______________________________________________ Flac mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac --_000_CY4PR1001MB2277E580DE8A0C042157B600A2840CY4PR1001MB2277_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:sc= hemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/of= fice/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1= 257"> <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Segoe UI"; panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:#954F72; text-decoration:underline;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} @page WordSection1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} --></style> </head> <body lang=3D"LT" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"#954F72"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif">Hm,<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Se= goe UI",sans-serif">"Atmos presumably has it's own lossy compress= ion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= Segoe UI",sans-serif">=94 =96 maybe. But what about Atmos in TrueHD or Atmos in LPCM?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:"Se= goe UI",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif">Spatial audio:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><a href=3D"https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-real= ity/spatial_sound">https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-real= ity/spatial_sound</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><a href=3D"https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-real= ity/spatial_sound_in_directx">https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows= /mixed-reality/spatial_sound_in_directx</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif">There is a set of HRTF functions - </span><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-ser= if">head-relative transfer functions</span><span style=3D"font-family:"= ;Segoe UI",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif">There are basically 3 major formats DTS:X, Atmos and Auro 3D.<o:p><= /o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif">One of the major obstacles for VR/AR headsets is the sound and prop= er positioning of sound. IMHO, this is one of the reasons why Microsoft is = bringing Dolby Atmos to Windows platform. And this is one of the reasons Microsoft has implemented Windows Sonic at the = same time. There are no popular mechanisms to position objects based audio = in some kind unified way. Windows Sonic is now one such technology.<o:p></o= :p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif">While Windows Sonic rendering exists there is now format for this k= ind of files, except Atmos and DTS:X. Sony does their own implementation.<o= :p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Segoe UI",sans= -serif">So I thought maybe FLAC or Xiph.org has some plans for that...<o:p>= </o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink= /?LinkId=3D550986"> Mail</a> for Windows 10</p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E= 1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0cm"><b>From: </b><a hr= ef=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Brian Willoughby</a><br> <b>Sent: </b>2017 m. rugpj=FB=E8io 12 d., =F0e=F0tadienis 12:45<br> <b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Flac] Spatial/Atmos on FLAC?</p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">On Aug 10, 2017, at= 5:46 AM, Renatas Lau?adis <[email protected]> wrote:<br> > are there any plans for FLAC to implement spatial audio? Or maybe Atmo= s on FLAC?<br> <br> FLAC is a multichannel audio format supporting up to 8 channels. There are = advantages to compressing 2 channel (stereo) audio in terms of file size sa= vings, but there is no compression advantage to other combinations.<br> <br> Atmos supports up to 128 channels, 10-channel minimum, so it cannot be dire= ctly stored in FLAC due to the 8-channel limit. In addition, Atmos presumab= ly has it's own lossy compression, so it would be pointless to use a lossle= ss conversion for a lossy surround file. Atmos is also proprietary, or at least I assume we do not have the o= ption of supporting it anyway.<br> <br> I do not see any documentation of Spatial - is that a standard format? Is i= t an open format? Is it even intended to be distributed as a separate digit= al file?<br> <br> In any event, archival and delivery for mastering of surround audio is gene= rally done in individual mono files. Some surround projects are delivered o= n 8-channel digital audio tape with only 6 channels used in the case of 5.1= surround audio. Beyond 5.1, there must be various methods of delivering audio. There might be some advantage= with FLAC to combine pairs in surround, such as front, side, rear, but oth= erwise I would say that it's a bad idea to try and place more than 2 channe= ls in a single file. The audio frames become too large to compress well.<br> <br> There's a difference between formats used for recording, mixing, and master= ing versus formats used for delivery of the final product to consumers. Del= ivery formats like Dolby and DTS generally require licensed software compre= ssion tools, making it difficult to convert to FLAC in any case.<br> <br> Perhaps you could explain more about what you hope to see?<br> <br> Brian Willoughby<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Flac mailing list<br> [email protected]<br> <a href=3D"http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac">http://lists.xiph.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/flac</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </body> </html> --_000_CY4PR1001MB2277E580DE8A0C042157B600A2840CY4PR1001MB2277_-- --===============1169548415924526555== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KRmxhYyBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKRmxhY0B4aXBoLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMueGlwaC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9mbGFjCg== --===============1169548415924526555==--