Re: Feature Request JAMin

On Wed, February 6, 2013 3:07 am, Michiel Broek wrote:
> On 02/05/2013 04:02 PM, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>> On Wed, February 6, 2013 1:29 am, Michiel Broek wrote:
>>> On 02/05/2013 12:37 AM, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>>>> On Tue, February 5, 2013 7:27 am, Michiel Broek wrote:
>>>>> On 02/04/2013 05:31 PM, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>>>>>>> I see it like this. A unit for live sound is adjusted once for the
>>>>>>> combination of speaker units and amplifiers. Then only minor teaks
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> be needed for certain halls, but in most cases it's not necessary.
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>> all is adjusted, lock the unit and bury the password. There is a
>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>> why these DSP's have so few knobs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mastering is different, each song is different and even the same
>>>>>>> song
>>>>>>> can be made different just by tuning Jamin. Jamin does a good job
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> works well combined with Ardour.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see it as two whole different things even if a lot of processing
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But if someone would decide to go ahead building a solution for
>>>>>>>>> live
>>>>>>>>> sound, then I would like to see that happen in a fork of Jamin
>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>> of trying to build all in one application.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't understand why you would request a fork. Jamin hasn't
>>>>>>>> changed
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> several years so making some additions is hardly a big deal. If
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>> to continue using the older interface there could even be a
>>>>>>>> "classic"
>>>>>>>> interface for people with that specific need.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Multiple interfaces for multiple uses. Jamin as a mastering tool
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> live
>>>>>>>> and post prod. Makes sense to me to have it all in one place. A
>>>>>>>> flexible
>>>>>>>> and highly customisable solution for audio quality. The sound
>>>>>>>> engineers
>>>>>>>> best friend on or off stage...
>>>>>>> I guess if I would design a software DSP based on Jamin technology,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> still would like it to be so that no one passing by that computer
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> change any setting. It's just needed once and is mostly stacked
>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the amp racks too, so it's not in range of the FOH mixer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In order to achieve something like this with jamin we need a daemon
>>>>>> mode.
>>>>>> There is one thing in the way of that at the moment. It also affects
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "presets" ui mode (-g). Basically the hdeq requires to be realized
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> least once before everything will work as expected.  The hack is to
>>>>>> realize the main window then hide it but in daemon mode we don't
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> realize any windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan do you have any tips on how to bypass "realizing" the hdeq. I
>>>>>> notice
>>>>>> we have the heq_pixmap for offscreen drawable so it looks like we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> pretty close already.
>>>>> Based on these ideas I would suggest to split it in two parts. The
>>>>> daemon that does the processing and listens on a network socket for a
>>>>> controlling app.
>>>>> Build the controller app and let in communicate over the network.
>>>>> Then
>>>>> you have the full freedom to install everything on one machine, or
>>>>> run
>>>>> headless, or run remote controlled. For local use, use named sockets
>>>>> only.
>>>>>
>>>> We already have osc support so we might not need a new socket. I think
>>>> we
>>>> can add a flag for remote controlling the daemon via the existing
>>>> interface.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not completely across OSC though so if anyone has a suggestion for
>>>> the
>>>> best way to handle it functionally please let me know.
>>>>
>>>> FYI, I have managed to get past the issue of "realizing" the hdeq
>>>> widget.
>>>> Turns out that the update_meters() function was the culprit.
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking at the Daemon mode now and then I will make an update to
>>>> cvs
>>>> for others to  test out...
>>>>
>>> Patrick, for some ideas about live units,
>>> http://www.dbxpro.com/en-US/product_families/driverack
>>> The building blocks in Jamin are there, but I think you need a lot of
>>> configuration options to get to one of these dbx units.
>>>
>> What would you say we are missing at the moment that is the most obvious
>> feature to include in a live processing unit?
>
> Delay's in each output for speaker alignment. 0 up to 10 mSec in small
> steps would do.  For easy setup, the readout should be in inches/feet or
> centimeters. For the rest it is all a kind of plugable system, like
> stereo in, stereo low mid and high out, or mono subs, two bands. Or six
> bands and then you need to link two units, In software this can be just
> one unit if the host can handle that.
>

Delays are easy to add. We have several plugins available for that.

What I am seeing is the following signal chain:

input -> stereo  ->eq -> 32/1024 band -> xover

|-> pre aux -> ->individual stereo channels -> volume control -> jack out
|-> compressors -> stereo -> limiter -> volume -> stereo out
|-> compressors-> post aux -> individual stereo channels -> volume control
 -> jack out
|-> compressors -> limiters -> individual stereo channels -> volume
control  -> multiple jack outs

That provides a decent amount of flexibility but limits us to a maximum of
3 stereo channels of output.

To give us more channels we would need to add support for more compressor
chains. I'm not sure how the xover would be affected by having more than 3
output paths. What is the general method for dealing with that case?


> Most hardware units have a smaller eq (31 bands) then Jamin has. In
> addition there are notch filters on some of them to suppress feedback. I
> hate that but sometimes you really need them. The current eq can do that
> too so I think you won't need to add that.
>
> There are also units that have an input delay for larger ranges. That's
> only useful for very large venues where you place extra stacks away from
> the main stage. But it can be useful in small theaters as well if you
> have extra speakers on a balcony or something like that. More for fixed
> systems but it can be a nice addition.
>

We can add an input delay but currently we only have stereo inputs. Is
there a need for more?

> Maybe you need to add something like startup Jamin in different modes
> (Mastering/Live) or let it startup in the last configured setup.
>

Than is easy enough to add. We already have three modes:

Classic
Presets
Daemon

It is entirely reasonable to add a few more like:

Quad output
Live - 6 channel
5.1 - surround
5.1 + 2 - surround
5.1 + 2  over stereo - "Dolby E" broadcast format
Ambisonic output







--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd

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