Re: [Tiki-devel] About the roundtable meetings...

@Bernard: You write: "the date and time is not the (only) problem"

You are right that it's not the only problem. But pretty much all the problems are directly or indirectly caused by this. I explained it previously in detail.

Here is a simple method to think of root causes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys
You solve the root cause, and everything else gets easier. At the very least, it then becomes much clearer which is the next biggest root cause of remaining problems. Working on symptoms vs the root cause is a waste of time.

Tiki25 was the https://tiki.org/article497-Biggest-Tiki-Release-Ever-Tiki-25 so there are plenty of topics.

There is no need for more talk/planning/debates. Just needs to be done. In a few hours, one year of meetings can be planned. Just create 12 wiki pages and 12 calendar items, and put a banner on all *.tiki.org sites that says when is the next meeting. Here is a potential tool: https://doc.tiki.org/Pluginincludeurl

Weekday is better than week-end. There is nothing wrong with 3rd Thursday so I kept that (if a key participant wants another day, just speak up). 14h UTC is best time as explained here: https://tiki.org/Picking-a-time-for-a-community-meeting so I updated: https://tiki.org/tiki-pagehistory.php?page=Roundtable+Meetings&newver=163&oldver=160

The Tiki Calendar can't deal with this so I assigned a dev:
https://avan.tech/item91131-Make-it-possible-to-use-the-Tiki-Calendar-for-the-Tiki-Roundtable-Meetings-held-monthly-every-3rd-Thursday-at-14h-UTC
In the mean time, just add 12 events. Create one as UTC, and then use the "copy to a new event" 11 times.

Once everyone is adequately reserved ahead of time, there will be more people. More people = more topics. And the Unconference method is OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconference
If there are fewer topics, the meeting is shorter, more topics: longer meeting.
Anything more organized is a bonus. If meeting are planned a long time beforehand, people will be more prepared with demos, etc. And as I wrote before, these meetings will influence other processes like the release process.

Best regards,

Marc


On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 11:03:31 +0300 Tiki developers [email protected] said

> Hi, 
> 
> Seems the participants of this discussion agrees on a fixed day, fixed hours
> yearly planned 
> 
> Pre- summary (discussion keeps going on, right ?); 
> 
> It could be week-day or week-end. 
> 
> If it is week-day, I suggest we keep 3rd Thursday on the month at 14:00UTC. 
> If it is week-end, I suggest we go for the 3rd Sunday on the month at
> 14:00UTC. 
> 
> Using a date (every 25th of the month) is possible too but I have the feeling
> it will be more complicate. 
> 
> The "Tiki Team" would meet and invite others to come. 
> - Announcements (news for the project, new stuff, future and critical) will
> be made (eventually turned into Tiki News - another topic… 😭) 
> - Support, demos and help will be provide if requested 
> 
> This is a wide invitation to anyone part of the Tiki project (that's how the
> Jitsi team work from my understanding)  
> 
> ------ 
> 
> The "yes, but…” part 
> While I’m trying to keep noise low and discussion short I have some
> feelings about this. 
> 
> Sound good and… how TRM was 2 years ago or so. For example; 
> https://tiki.org/Roundtable%20Meeting%202021%2007 
> 
> Because the date and time is not the (only) problem 
> 
> The organized and volunteering way; 
> 
> I think people don’t like to waste their time, and in the past the TRM I
> organized were relying on a minimum topics list prepared in advance mixed
> with people adding their topics. (prioritized if not last minutes) 
> 
> If things are organized and topics list are various and interesting people
> will comes. (as it has been proven in the past) 
> 
> From experience this is a 3 hours minimum to organize, contact people to ask
> a demo (sometimes to beg for a demo 😓), motivate, publish things, set
> pages after the meeting, etc. 
> Then another 2 hours to be there at the meeting. It is not big but it is not
> small time one has to contribute. 
> 
> For this to meeting to happen (every time it is supposed to happen) and have
> a good value we need: 
> - Volunteers that give 5 hours of their time every month. (and not the same
> guy please ! -(not fair and variety is healthy) 
> - Devs and Power users that give 2 to 3h (sometimes demo requires extra time)
> volunteering to share and answering requests (for toppic/presentation or live
> support) 
> - Set the day and hour. (Yeah) 
> 
> Practically 
> - Organisation ; I can volunteer, I guess with Gary we can share the load
> (sorry for auto-volunteering you Gary but we are the communication team by
> default 🤣), may be others would want to organize too (and not only to post
> topics) 
> - Use case and demo ; Jonny (same auto-volunteering of the usual suspects
> 🤣), Myself, Gary can demo things but more people is needed. 
> - Announcement and future of the project: The release team (Roberto never
> said no 😇)...Marc,  I understand that if the TRM on regular date planned
> a year ahead you can participate? That would really fit with your involvement
> in Tiki (but I don’t dare auto-volunteering you 🤣) or eventually a
> Junior aware of the developments and additions to Tiki to comes ? 
> 
> But who else ? We need more people to have a Tiki team . People (devs or
> testers) that have a knowledge they can share, offer light support, explain
> changes (even propose changes), etc. 
> 
> The non-organized way; 
> 
> Having things organized, is my point of view and I recall some frictions with
> some members that didn’t like centralization and planning of the TRM. 
> 
> Sorry to speak for others (they should join the discussion) it was said then
> that things would be better without plan, without “centralization” with
> more “freedom” and last minutes topics. 
> 
> Yeah….. Well, this is what we had for several month now and this is where
> we are (TRM are almost dead). 🤷🏻‍♂️ 
> 
> Have a nice week-end, 
> Bernard 
> 
> PS: If you read so far, I guess that you are interested in having a regular
> TRM. May be the people interested in that discussion should now move to a
> live meeting (jitsi) ? 
> 
> On 26 Apr 2023, at 12:43, Gary Cunningham-Lee  wrote: 
> 
> Hi, 
> I agree with the idea of a set time for the meeting every month,
>      and the time as Bernard suggested would be good. If I recall
>      correctly, the time hasn't really varied much over the months, so
>      that should be agreeable. 
> If somebody let's us know that they would like to attend but the
>      time is bad for them, then maybe that could be an additional
>      meeting, as a special case, keeping the regular schedule as it is. 
> Bernard asked "who is the Tiki team?" in the comparison to "the
>      Jitsi team" sharing at their monthly meeting. Maybe if our RTM
>      time is always the same, being optimistic about this, there might
>      be a better chance of "the Tiki team" members participating. I'm
>      thinking of people that normally are apparently too busy to
>      attend. 
> The set meeting time would also eliminate at least one barrier to
>      entry -- not knowing exactly when the meeting is -- for newcomers
>      to Tiki, or other people that don't normally attend. 
> As a kind of Plan B, as I brought up in the Matrix chat, if
>      numbers continue to stay low, we could kind of refocus the RTM as
>      a podcast in the sense that, while we would still encourage live
>      participation, we would put more into promoting watching and
>      listening to the recordings. We should do this anyway, but this
>      makes more sense the fewer people participate. It would be a
>      matter of posting the recording links regularly, writing news
>      articles or using a blog, and labeling the recordings as the "Tiki
>      Roundtable Blog" or similar, etc. 
> Of course, whoever is in charge of the meeting would have a
>      bigger task this way. In the past, people who wanted to
>      participate added their topics to the agenda. If few people
>      participate, then the meeting facilitator(s) needs to come up with
>      the topics and presentations (and interviews, etc., thinking about
>      what goes into regular podcasts). This could be a lot of work,
>      though, so it would be much better if attendance increased and
>      people were ready with topics and things to say about them. 
> -- Gary 
> 
> On 4/26/2023 4:17 PM, Bernard Sfez
>      wrote: 
> 
> Hello
>        Marc, Torsten, All, 
> 
> (I waited a week or so since my initial post) 
> 
> Based on the feedback; 
> 
> 1/ Have a TRM planned yearly with fixed day 
> IE : Every 3rd Thursday at 13:00 UTC (like it used to).  
> Note: This yearly planning (date and time) can be
>            different of course but once set we don’t move it. Should be
>            between 12:00UTC and 14:00UTC  (
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20230426&p1=165&p3=195&p4=37&p5=176&p6=2480
> 
> 
> I think the people willing to join the TRM will be pleased
>          if that solves the issue. 
> 
> 1.1/ Who will be there ? 
> where the Jitsi team shares 
> 
> It would be awesome to follow the Jitsi example you gave
>          Marc, but who is the Tiki team ? 
> 
> If people with THE knowledge don’t comes to the TRM, there
>          is no "Tiki team" during the TRM. 
> At a point that I would say to our VIP (the Tiki team):
>          "setup any date time that is good for you and I will manage”.
>          (or look at the recording) 🥴 
> 
> I understand some of the people with deep knowledge won’t
>          never comes, that’s their choice and it’s ok. 
> But a few have this knowledge and users need them to share
>          it so they can promote/document/contribute to the Tiki
>          project. 
> 
> 2/ Have a flexible second date 
> I would be happy with one working TRM. ;-) 
> 
> However, if we want flexible meetings, we can use the
>          matrix chat and setup a meeting on the go (it happened several
>          times). 
> As not all uses the Matrix chat, may be those meetings
>          should be announced in the dev list. (But informal is what it
>          is… no guaranties) 
> 
> — 
> 
> May be most people coding and using Tiki are not
>            interested anymore in TRM and it is not really a problem
>            with the schedule. 
> 3 people discussing this is quite low…. 
> 
> Regards, 
> Bernard 
> 
> On 23 Apr 2023, at 2:02, Marc Laporte  wrote: 
> 
> Hello Bernard, 
> I would love to participate more often, and I have
>                  many answers to questions that people will ask (ex.:
>                  what is roadmap for feature XYZ?). However, as a CEO
>                  of a growing company, and a volunteer in various
>                  organizations, my schedule fills up quickly. I am
>                  always available for emergencies, but I refuse to be
>                  an enabler of an inefficient process. And thus, I
>                  won't cancel/move my other meetings because the
>                  roundtable was confirmed a few days before it is held. 
> It takes less time (FOR EVERYONE) to plan a meeting in
>                  3 months than in 3 weeks because almost everyone is
>                  available if you book them 3 months ahead of time,
>                  assuming you pick a time appropriate for all timezones
>                  of your target audience. But if you book people 3
>                  weeks before, you need to use a tool like
> https://doc.tiki.org/PluginConvene and everyone needs
>                  to invest more time. Block all potential meeting
>                  dates, vote, then, stay informed of when meeting is
>                  confirmed, and free up other slots. 
> As you now, I manage a team. I want my colleagues to
>                  participate to these events. They can learn, and they
>                  can share. But as a company policy, we don't impose
>                  work schedules. Team members make their own schedule,
>                  and they adapt for the few times we have team
>                  meetings. Thus, late announcements of monthly round
>                  tables make it that we don't even convey that there
>                  will be a meeting. 
> If you plan the meetings 12 months ahead of time, they
>                  can be useful to help organize other things, like
>                  branching dates or release dates. We just picked the
>                  dates for the branching and release of Tiki 26.0, and
>                  if we knew when the next roundtable was, it would been
>                  taken into consideration. 
> If you plan the meetings months ahead of time, we can
>                  permanently have a banner on all *.tiki.org sites
>                  which says: "Next community meeting in 22 days. Click
>                  here to add to your calendar, click here for a browser
>                  reminder 1 hour before the meeting, etc." 
> So planning monthly meetings on short notice: 
> * Takes more time from everybody (organizers and
>                  participants) 
> * Reduces participation of existing community 
> * Reduces the opportunity for synergistic scheduling *
>                  Reduces the opportunity for potential new community
>                  members to know about it, and join. 
> So my recommendation is to pick the same day/time
>                  every month and schedule/announce them 12 months in
>                  advance. So everyone can block those times in their
>                  schedule. You can look at past votes to see what are
>                  general preferences. I guarantee that this will have a
>                  huge impact. 
> It is very similar to when we didn't have scheduled
>                  Tiki releases. By announcing a release schedule, the
>                  whole community could self-organize to fit their
>                  individual plans within a larger community plan:
> https://tiki.org/Tiki-Versions 
> Here is an associated concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy 
> As an example: Jitsi, and I am copy-pasting their
>                  info: 
> ---- 
> Recording of Jitsi's bi-weekly community call. This is
>                  where the Jitsi team shares their latest development
>                  status and plans.  Community developers can ask about
>                  issues and make requests directly with the Jitsi
>                  development team. 
> Join us every-other Monday at 10:30 Central US - https://meet.jit.si/TheCall
> . 
> Visit jitsi.org for more details. 
> ---- 
> Mautic has something similar. 
> FYI, we have some team members assigned to work on
>                  this: 
> https://meetingfacilitator.dev4.evoludata.com/ 
> Best regards, 
> Marc 
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:51:24 +0300 Tiki developers
> [email protected] said 
> Hello All, We have a TRM today
>                    at 13UTC and I would like to share some thoughts…
>                    TRM participation is down to a point that I wonder
>                    if there is any interest 
> to keep and maintain them… End of 2022… ahem let’s
>                    skip to 2023. 01 few people (fosdem meeting) 02 was
>                    cancelled 03 was only Gary and me 04 … not a lot of
>                    people express interest to join I wrote this because
>                    I hope we can keep a formal regular meeting between 
> members and new comers of the Tiki project. Those
>                    meetings still have interest for: -
>                    Announcement/status of things to come: release
>                    process, change of 
> technology discussion (bs5, PHP8, etc) -
>                    Demonstration of new additions in Tiki or better way
>                    to use the existing - Human/social relations between
>                    members of the community —— In the past they had an
>                    interest for: - Discuss revamp or addition of stuff
>                    - Vote on a decision - Tiki.o websites decisions or
>                    changes - Tiki Association Those are happening
>                    outside of the TRM since a while. It allowed to have
>                    more 
> topics filling the TRM planning. —— With fewer point
>                    of interest, it is very hard to maintain TRM if the
>                    meetings 
> are not regularly organized and offer interesting
>                    topics every month Announcements Having 2 to 4
>                    announcements per year for release status or
>                    branching is not 
> enough to fill the TRM. (Tiki25.0 was the last
>                    release discussion Nov 2022) Technology addition or
>                    change requires volunteering from developers or
>                    people 
> involved and having the knowledge. (not happening)
>                    Demonstrations Requires volunteering from developers
>                    or people that have things to show to 
> the other. (Volunteers are rare and it can’t be
>                    always the same members) Personally I think that
>                    with a continuous flow of additions in Tiki we
>                    should 
> have 2 TRM per month. A lot of stuff is added, very
>                    few knows and 
> documentation with samples/usecases to attract
>                    people on Tiki don’t follow 
> 🥴 Human/social relations between members of the
>                    community While essential in my mind and almost the
>                    reason I keep coming, this is not 
> enough… See the usual suspect (stolen from JonnyB I
>                    admit) in a few hours, Bernard 
> 
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