Meeting Minutes for April 25th 2010

<Robert> ##### Meeting Started #####
[19:54:33]<Robert> Welcome everyone thank you for those who made it. I would 
like to start off with the Agenda. 1. Development update from random 2. Work 
on scheduling a PMC/Staff meeting 3. Open Floor. Anyone have anything to add 
before we get started?
[19:54:49]<random> another topic
[19:54:55]<random> Documentation
[19:55:16]<St_Kerouac> +1
[19:56:12]<Robert> Okay Random we can add Documentation to the list. Going 
to give the floor to Random, unless anyone else has anything to add.
[19:56:26]<random> ok
[19:56:52]<random> you'll have noticed 2.0.0 was pushed out the door this 
morning
[19:57:00]<random> as agreed a couple of weeks ago
[19:57:45]<random> at the same time I have created a release scenario for 
2.1.0
[19:58:21]<random> this essentially means that 2.1.0 is feature frozen
[19:58:45]<random> the main enhancements with which 2.1.0 will be finalized 
are
[19:59:20]<random> 1. blocks rewrite
[19:59:32]<random> 2. anonymous masks in DD
[19:59:41]<random> 3. Legacy stuff
[20:00:01]<random> should I expound on any of that?
[20:00:18]<random> or are they known quantities?
[20:00:56]<St_Kerouac> anonymous masks?
[20:01:05]<Robert> A bit more on #2 might be interesting but for the most 
part they are known
[20:01:26]<random> anon masks is a shorthand
[20:01:56]<random> basically means you have security checks hardwired into 
an object
[20:02:07]<random> rather than calling the mask from the privileges module
[20:02:20]<random> 1 and 2 are sort of the same thing conceptually
[20:02:44]<random> think I wrote a forum post about it
[20:02:47]<random> checking
[20:03:02]<St_Kerouac> r/o
[20:03:15]<Robert> As an aside I love the blocks rewrite
[20:03:53]<random> this thread disects it
[20:03:54]<random> http://www.xaraya.com/index.php/xarbb/topic/3647
[20:04:02]<random> another way of looking at it is
[20:04:13]<random> an object like a block or a dd object
[20:04:28]<random> contains the info needed to define its access in itself
[20:04:42]<random> rather than having to go through the privileges module
[20:05:02]<random> the mask is "anonymous" because privileges no longer 
knows about it
[20:05:10]<St_Kerouac> kk
[20:05:30]<Robert> Oh thank you for the explaination :)
[20:05:39]<random> been thinking of writing an article about the concept: 
basically moving from a
[20:05:59]<random> system-centric to an object-centric setup
[20:06:39]<random> check out the dd access setup
[20:06:51]<random> mikespub did a nice job on the UI I think
[20:07:08]<random> even with the basic concept in place
[20:07:36]<random> half the trick is making it workin an agreeable UI
[20:07:51]<Robert> Yes UI is important :)
[20:10:47]<random> so much for 1and 2 I guess
[20:11:05]<random> there will probably be tweaks to them in the future
[20:11:11]<random> but that's hte basics
[20:11:16]<random> the legacy thing
[20:11:27]<Robert> Always good that they will evolve in the future
[20:12:01]<random> we have moved all legacy stuff into a legacy folder in 
lib/xaraya
[20:12:13]<random> @robert: everything continues to evolve
[20:12:18]<random> one step begets the next
[20:13:55]<random> the legacy stuff should help a bit
[20:13:59]<Robert> Very true I was just saying I am glad there is forward 
thinking ;)
[20:14:06]<random> for some 1x modules
[20:15:03]<random> if you activate legacy support in the base module
[20:15:46]<random> this should not be construed as a guaranteed 
cpmpatibility
[20:16:02]<random> and I think it's fair to say
[20:16:24]<random> should be avoided for production sites
[20:17:26]<random> but it does help in development situations
[20:17:27]<Robert> Yes, I was follwing the thread on the news groups. It is 
"nice" that its there and it may help developers and tinkers port over 
modules.
[20:17:46]<Robert> I type to slow :P
[20:18:26]<random> personally I'm not too comfortable with the whole idea, 
but w/e
[20:20:13]<random> so that is more or less what 2.1.' will look like
[20:20:35]<Robert> With the split I would gather we will see another beta 
and RC releases? (2.1.0 is looking good from my point of view)
[20:20:36]<random> I expect the rc1 will be released fairly soon
[20:20:43]<random> and after that a 2.1.0 release
[20:21:53]<random> questions?
[20:22:46]<Robert> None from me at this time.
[20:25:00]<Robert> St_Kerouac any questions?
[20:25:25]<St_Kerouac> nada
[20:25:27]<St_Kerouac> ready for next topic
[20:25:53]<random> which brings us to 2.2.0
[20:26:06]<Robert> Oh 2.2.0
[20:27:23]<random> which is essentially where the main branch is headed
[20:27:52]<random> the reason for splitting the release scenario off is so 
that the main branch can accept more changes
[20:28:13]<random> the topics as I see them for now are
[20:29:15]<random> 1.Roles "cleanup"
[20:29:51]<random> right now this means
[20:30:12]<random> a. remove the myself role
[20:30:25]<random> b. remove the roles_roles dataobject
[20:30:35]<random> c. general code cleanup
[20:30:55]<random> the last is necessary cause since we changed roles to run 
over dd
[20:31:57]<random> the functions in the module were never really rewritten
[20:32:10]<random> it's sort of makeshift under the hood
[20:33:54]<random> furthermore there are scenarios to be merged
[20:34:08]<random> one I'd like to get done is the requestmapper
[20:34:29]<random> which is a unified approach for alternate url mappings
[20:34:35]<random> such as short urls
[20:34:43]<random> and the dd object based urls
[20:35:10]<Robert> Excited about the requestmapper myself :) (Not that roles 
clean up is anything to sneeze at)
[20:36:38]<random> the scenario is about 90% done, but I've held back 
integrating it until the release scenario wassplit off
[20:36:46]<random> cause it brings changeeverywhere pretty much
[20:37:17]<random> and the details of the concept should be peer reviewed
[20:37:28]<random> which is saying there will be a vit of confusion once 
it's merged
[20:37:36]<random> for awhile
[20:38:00]<Robert> confusion can be good
[20:38:48]<random> then there are other potential scenarios to be merged
[20:38:54]<random> - tableddl ?
[20:38:56]<random> - classrename ?
[20:38:57]<random> - catscoremodule?
[20:38:59]<random> - multiconnect?
[20:39:00]<random> that I see right now
[20:39:27]<random> the first replaces the php code fro creating tables with 
xml files
[20:39:45]<random> it's actually been around a while
[20:39:59]<random> but since that's ALL it does it was never merged
[20:40:34]<random> we were waiting for more progress I guess :)
[20:40:50]<random> inthe meantime the db has changed so a lot of it needs to 
be checked
[20:41:03]<random> rather the xml files need to be adjusted
[20:41:36]<random> the classrename scenario has been pushed back pending 
investigation of namespaces in php5
[20:41:54]<random> never mind that esoteric explanation
[20:42:00]<random> it's been pushed back :)
[20:42:13]<Robert> haha Good to know ;)
[20:42:27]<random> the effect of it is
[20:42:30]<random> it would basically remove all
[20:42:35]<random> or a lot
[20:42:42]<random> of the sys::import calls
[20:43:05]<random> by renaming the classes and letting php findand load them 
automagically
[20:43:13]<random> so onthe user side no change really
[20:43:20]<random> which is why it is not urgent
[20:44:26]<random> the catscoremodule scenario comes from a brainstorming 
chris and I had
[20:44:43]<random> about what the consequences would/could be
[20:44:50]<random> if we made categories a core module
[20:45:00]<random> it's at a very early stage
[20:45:28]<random> the idea behind the multiconnect scneario on the other 
hand
[20:46:03]<random> would be to let dd objects store there data in dbs other 
than the one xaraya runs on
[20:46:13]<random> also at a very early stage
[20:46:26]<Robert> Good to see thought and talk being put into 
expanding/contracting the ccore.
[20:46:40]<Robert> Oh the multiconnect sounds very useful
[20:47:02]<random> I think it would help make xaraya work moreeasilywith 
other systems
[20:47:13]<random> basically using dd as asort of bridge if you will
[20:48:21]<random> to round out the exposition
[20:48:39]<random> robert recently made some suggestions on the forum
[20:49:04]<random> some are a question of elbowgrease I think
[20:49:16]<Robert> Yes that would be very usefull. Would it be limited to 
DB's on the same server or would one be able to connect to an exterial 
source?
[20:49:43]<random> dbscould be anywhere I think
[20:49:51]<random> at least mysql can fo that
[20:49:57]<random> not sure aout other dbs
[20:50:02]<Robert> Sorry for not getting back to your reply on the forum 
yet. I agree that not all of it needs to be in roles per say, but it all 
does effect roles
[20:50:19]<Robert> Very cool, I can think of lots of usecases for 
multiconnect :P
[20:50:27]<random> heh
[20:52:28]<random> perhaps to quickly back up to the categories thing
[20:53:14]<random> categories would/could eventually morph into a way of 
tagging things in xaraya
[20:53:46]<random> and in doing so
[20:54:08]<random> would perhaps partially or wholly absorb such things as 
ratings and hitcounts
[20:54:29]<random> at least that is the direction of first thoughts
[20:54:47]<Robert> (I have always wondered why there was a need for 
keywords. When with a little tweaking categories could do both jobs) Now 
hitcount I never thought about.
[20:55:03]<random> ah right
[20:55:24]<random> keywords is another
[20:55:49]<Robert> Ratings thats an interesting one to absorb
[20:56:14]<Robert> Keywords was just the most logical because cats and 
keywords are so much allike in what they do.
[20:56:25]<random> yes
[20:57:25]<random> if we step out of the concept and look at just the 
technical angle
[20:57:40]<St_Kerouac> i posited merging keywords and categories at one 
time, but didn't get received well
[20:58:10]<random> we can also draw similarities between the categories 
linkage table and the hooks table
[20:58:20]<St_Kerouac> O.o
[20:58:28]<random> yea, abit out there
[20:58:29]<St_Kerouac> that's anutha level more involved tho
[20:59:07]<random> "stego: don't know about the past
[20:59:11]<St_Kerouac> r/o
[20:59:17]<random> but going into the future we need to be flexible
[20:59:34]<random> so suggestions are welcome
[20:59:57]<St_Kerouac> drupal's taxonomy module is a good concept to work 
towards with a merge like this
[21:00:03]<St_Kerouac> it's what i was basing my initial merge ideas on
[21:00:08]<random> aha
[21:00:11]<St_Kerouac> it lends itself well to semantic-web applications
[21:00:22]<random> never looked much at it
[21:00:31]<St_Kerouac> it's mickey-mouse
[21:00:35]<St_Kerouac> as a whole
[21:00:45]<St_Kerouac> i just grabbed the one file from it that i needed
[21:00:57]<St_Kerouac> modules/taxonomy/taxonomy.module
[21:01:15]<St_Kerouac> drupal packs each module's code into like a single 
php file with a ".module" extension
[21:01:27]<St_Kerouac> pita to work with, but easy to grab in one shot
[21:01:30]<random> heh
[21:01:40]<random> I have not pushed the scenario,but could do so if there 
was interest to work on it
[21:01:46]<random> like I say it is very early stage
[21:01:54]<St_Kerouac> yeah, def a BIG interest
[21:02:02]<random> ok
[21:02:16]<St_Kerouac> have had clients pass on projects for lack of a 
"taxonomy" component that mimicked what drupal provides
[21:02:20]<random> I'll update it and push
[21:02:24]<St_Kerouac> werd
[21:04:08]<random> another area, if I can move on
[21:04:09]<random> ?
[21:04:16]<Robert> Feel free to move on
[21:04:22]<St_Kerouac> proceed
[21:04:30]<random> si the messaging in roles
[21:04:38]<random> not real happy with it
[21:05:09]<random> starting with the fact that it uses temlalte files
[21:05:25]<random> was a good idea at the time
[21:05:34]<random> but more and more a pita
[21:06:04]<Robert> I will agree with that.
[21:06:19]<random> I think it would be easier to hold these messages in the 
db
[21:06:34]<random> easier for the site manager to tweak them
[21:06:50]<random> but there are some caveats
[21:07:00]<random> 1.you'd get another db table
[21:07:12]<random> 2. there is the multilingual issue to contend with
[21:07:18]<random> to the first onecan say
[21:07:29]<random> this would not just be roles messaging specific
[21:07:40]<random> but this would be a table in the mail module
[21:07:51]<random> you could beef the mail module up a lot
[21:07:58]<random> if we wanted to
[21:08:16]<random> for starters, male it accept BL markup
[21:09:02]<random> xou'd basically be merging the 2 UIs in roles and mail 
that compose messages
[21:09:27]<St_Kerouac> yeah, it doesn't need to be in roles
[21:09:38]<random> again the question becomes how far do we want to go in 
the core modules
[21:09:48]<random> btw the BL thing
[21:09:59]<random> there was a discussion early early on
[21:10:02]<Robert> Moving it to the DB also has the bennifit of letting 
someone edit the messages that might not need to have access to FTP and 
files directly.
[21:10:13]<random> yes
[21:10:16]<random> exactly
[21:10:23]<St_Kerouac> i think we have plenty enough merge scenarios to deal 
with before we jump on how roles/mail/messaging gets divided
[21:10:44]<random> ..about "BL in content"
[21:10:51]<St_Kerouac> am in favor of it storing in whatever format 
Thunderbird uses, instead of mysql
[21:10:52]<random> was never implemented
[21:10:56]<random> unclear now why not
[21:11:20]<random> it is almost trivial to get xarpages to display BL
[21:11:33]<random> and I assume the same would hold for articles
[21:11:34]<St_Kerouac> proly ball just got dropped before i finished the 
implementation
[21:11:39]<random> why aren't we doing it I wonder
[21:11:43]<St_Kerouac> it* finished
[21:12:04]<St_Kerouac> no reason other than resources to do it
[21:12:23]<random> a rfc was written I thing
[21:12:30]<St_Kerouac> hmmm
[21:13:52]<random> http://www.xaraya.com/documentation/rfcs/rfc0026.html
[21:16:29]<random> the code for that already exists
[21:18:46]<Robert> Interesting read. If the concept for this was thought 
about in 2002, what came of it? Has to be a reason it wasn't implemented and 
used (one would think anyway?)
[21:19:28]<random> I think folks were waiting for studbury (phil) to 
implement
[21:19:32]<random> never happened
[21:19:36]<random> he moved on
[21:20:07]<random> or maybe it just got bogged down in the usual way :)
[21:20:15]<Robert> True
[21:20:16]<random> new ideas need a strong backing
[21:20:23]<random> otherwise they die
[21:20:42]<random> unless it's your itch you're not likely to scratch
[21:22:05]<random> well I could ramble on but perhaps this is a good point 
to stop at
[21:22:12]<random> the stuff enumerated above
[21:22:25]<random> and all those scenarios may or may not all jappen
[21:22:38]<random> but they certainly won't all happen in 2.2.0
[21:22:59]<random> I an happier to accumulate a few large changes and then 
release
[21:23:08]<random> and move onto the next
[21:23:17]<Robert> TBH I think it would be good to have any scenario out 
there incase there is developer intrest. As a non developer I know its work 
to set them up and to write about them, but at least they are there.
[21:23:19]<random> makes it easier to keep the codebase under control
[21:23:38]<random> true
[21:23:49]<random> but having the scenario per se is usually not enough
[21:23:58]<random> need some avertising
[21:24:01]<random> andexplanation
[21:24:18]<random> but sure
[21:24:20]<Robert> Yes on that note I have a question
[21:24:28]<random> canpush assoonasthere is some reasonaly content in them
[21:24:33]<random> sure
[21:24:57]<Robert> Where are developers currently more apt to communicate, 
news groups or the forums?
[21:25:16]<random> both
[21:25:21]<Robert> I notice both seem to get about the same traphic but by 
different people for 2x talks.
[21:25:27]<random> some more on one some on the other
[21:25:33]<random> yea
[21:26:16]<Robert> Is there ever going to be a point where we can try to get 
everyone using the same tool, be it news groups or the forum? Long term it 
seems it might be hard for some to be on the same page if they only follow 
one or the other.
[21:26:29]<St_Kerouac> a bridge is required
[21:26:34]<St_Kerouac> must accommodate both camps
[21:26:39]<St_Kerouac> had a bridge
[21:26:41]<St_Kerouac> at one time
[21:26:42]<St_Kerouac> i thot
[21:26:58]<St_Kerouac> ne1 have intel on that?
[21:27:24]*** jojo|away is now known as jojo
[21:27:42]<random> tbh it's not much of aproblem for me
[21:27:44]<Robert> As nice as a brigde would be, does anyone have the time 
to mske it, and maintain it? Have to remember the limited hands that are 
here. HYave to be realistic with expectations
[21:27:49]<random> I don't see the urgency
[21:28:10]<Robert> Sure random for now, but in the future its something we 
will have to think about why I posed the question
[21:29:02]<random> I don't think you can get ppl off their favorite medium 
of communication
[21:29:04]<Robert> Anyway no need to think on it to hard today was just 
p0utting it out there
[21:29:17]<random> it's an issue that comes up every so often
[21:29:29]<St_Kerouac> i say we table it pending location of a 
bridge-writing candidate
[21:29:36]<Robert> Is it there favorite or just what they are used to
[21:29:44]<St_Kerouac> it's split
[21:29:48]<St_Kerouac> like mac and PC
[21:30:00]<St_Kerouac> which is why we can't just go one way or the other
[21:30:03]<random> I personally use the forums when I want the content to be 
more permanent so to speak
[21:30:22]<random> but for specific development issues the ML is a bit 
cofier
[21:30:26]<jojo> hi guys - just dropped in noticed you talked of a bridge
[21:30:28]<random> just my opinion
[21:30:32]<St_Kerouac> my ng setup is borked so i'm stuck with forums too
[21:30:35]<jojo> this was gone over a few times in the last 6 years :)
[21:30:43]<jojo> the devel list contains all the info if you need it
[21:30:44]<jojo> but
[21:30:52]<jojo> John did half of it in xarbb
[21:31:04]<jojo> the other half had to be done - so atm the code is 
commented out in xarbb
[21:31:13]<St_Kerouac> werd
[21:31:18]<St_Kerouac> that gives us a good place to start with
[21:31:19]<jojo> bridge for NNTP-> forums and forums -> NNTP
[21:31:28]<St_Kerouac> perfect
[21:31:31]<jojo> last i heard paul or someone was gonna work on it
[21:31:32]<St_Kerouac> that's what we need
[21:31:39]<jojo> and do the other half
[21:31:41]<St_Kerouac> and a candidate is born! ;-)
[21:32:07]<St_Kerouac> so lets track paul down again, see if we can get him 
interested in picking up whereever he left off
[21:32:12]<jojo> hmm bl content - was performance issues wasn't it?
[21:32:18]<jojo> big hits
[21:32:37]<jojo> not sure tho but that circulating in the back of my head
[21:32:45]<jojo> (sorry reading back - just got here)
[21:33:03]<St_Kerouac> how re-optimized is it in 2x?
[21:33:10]<St_Kerouac> or was that verdict based on 2x?
[21:33:20]<random> BL is faster for starters
[21:33:23]<jojo> no was a 1x thing
[21:33:27]<jojo> and 2x seems slower
[21:33:29]<jojo> oh faster?
[21:33:30]<St_Kerouac> wondering if we've worked thru the bottleneck(s) that 
may have been there before
[21:33:30]<jojo> hmm
[21:33:43]<jojo> i did tests recently using xdebug and it was slower but not 
by much
[21:33:49]<random> it's not an issue I think
[21:34:34]<St_Kerouac> that gives us the answer to why that wasn't 
implemented yet, anyway
[21:34:43]<St_Kerouac> looks like we can proceed with it now
[21:35:10]<St_Kerouac> or at least try it on a branch
[21:35:32]<random> implement what exactly :)
[21:35:44]<St_Kerouac> BL for mail
[21:35:48]<random> ah
[21:35:52]<random> k
[21:36:00]<St_Kerouac> jo rewound us a tad. ;-)
[21:36:05]<jojo> sorry
[21:36:09]<St_Kerouac> np
[21:36:13]<St_Kerouac> just keeping random in the loop
[21:36:20]<jojo> can't get her earlier at 5am ion a monday :)
[21:36:44]<St_Kerouac> Monday for you, maybe. God is still on holiday over 
here...
[21:36:59]<St_Kerouac> And he left the lights on again...
[21:37:11]<St_Kerouac> Worst_temp_job_evar
[21:37:23]<St_Kerouac> </digress>
[21:37:42]<St_Kerouac> so, yeah, pls proceed with implementing BL handling 
in mail
[21:38:02]<St_Kerouac> no need to mod mail stuff up any further than that 
for now
[21:38:04]<jojo> random you mention 2x is faster - but lately my tests are 
showing slower - it used to be faster about 12-18mths ago maybe longer
[21:38:35]<jojo> had to cancel a 2x upgrade - roll back to 1x, but
[21:38:38]<jojo> that may have been the modules
[21:38:40]<jojo> like articles
[21:38:41]<St_Kerouac> we need a "share my xar config" page for 
troubleshooting
[21:39:07]<St_Kerouac> like a base page or something that is included with 
core
[21:39:35]<St_Kerouac> or for benchmarking
[21:39:36]<St_Kerouac> like now
[21:39:52]<St_Kerouac> lotta variables could be involved there
[21:39:57]<St_Kerouac> topic for another day, tho
[21:40:23]<random> I don't see a lot of performance type discussion around 
xaraya in general
[21:40:51]<St_Kerouac> meh, when i have performance issues, is b/c of 3rd 
party modules with too much data
[21:40:55]<random> is it an issue? it isn't really for me
[21:41:11]<jojo> it's only if clients complain really when it becomes an 
issue
[21:41:17]<jojo> in these cases
[21:41:34]<jojo> @St_Kerouac - yes modules i think here
[21:41:57]<St_Kerouac> my clients have only ever complained about 3rd party 
code performance, not about anything in core
[21:42:17]<jojo> well it's hard to separate sometimes
[21:42:32]<random> anyway, I'm done with my comments
[21:42:38]<St_Kerouac> docs?
[21:42:43]<random> thinkit probably went o ntoo long
[21:42:47]<jojo> one is reliant on the other - xdebug was good tho - and i 
tried the maccallgrind to analyse logs
[21:43:10]<random> I have to take off soon
[21:43:21]<St_Kerouac> kk
[21:43:25]<St_Kerouac> docs next week then?
[21:45:28]<jojo> hmm can't find the info on the Newsgroups for hte brige 
(and who it was that volunteered - think it was Paul) - the newsgroups are 
disappearing still
[21:45:37]<random> guess so,for me anyway :)
[21:45:42]<jojo> can i put that on the list for someone to followup and see 
if can be fixed?
[21:46:01]<jojo> have raised it before - pity to loose all the newsgroups 
esp devel and committer with teh discussions in it
[21:46:10]<St_Kerouac> agreed
[21:46:33]<St_Kerouac> more pressing concern for me right now is playing 
Where's Waldo with Chris
[21:46:47]<jojo> ?
[21:46:48]<random> yea what's hte deal there
[21:47:01]<St_Kerouac> if he was not himself british, he would proly have 
issue with some of my dry humor on the subject lately
[21:47:08]<random> this si not situation we can tolerate long term
[21:47:35]<St_Kerouac> dunno, he's never just dropped out completely for 
this long without any online time
[21:47:48]<jojo> how long is it?
[21:48:01]<St_Kerouac> 10+ days now, all shown as idle
[21:48:01]<random> there is a general tendency to do that
[21:48:13]<jojo> he did drop out once before - some important issue took him 
away from his computer for a few weeks
[21:48:14]<random> folks forget they should at least et others know
[21:48:27]<St_Kerouac> to not respond for 10+ days, sure, but to not even 
register as available by AIM while it's logged in is different
[21:48:27]<jojo> he may have mentioned it
[21:48:29]<random> to avoid situations like this
[21:48:41]<jojo> if you don't have a computer it can be hard
[21:49:09]<jojo> i recall that was an issue for him once before
[21:49:18]<jojo> ie not available where he was
[21:49:42]<jojo> but yes - unusual for him
[21:51:24]<St_Kerouac> I just left an SOS on his facebook wall
[21:51:29]<St_Kerouac> see if any other contacts have info
[21:51:49]<St_Kerouac> we'll discuss hiring a private investigator with our 
paypal budget next week. O.o
[21:52:07]<jojo> heh
[21:55:19]<Robert> Okay back sorry about that, but can't be around much 
longer. Did we move onto the next topic? random how much time you have left 
with us tonight?
[21:55:50]<random> still hanging onasIhave to do a few other things
[21:57:27]<Robert> Okay, since its a quicky, does anyone have time for a 
PMC/Staff meeting in the upcoming week? I would like to get things more 
orginized, and maybe go over a few things for upcoming community meetings
[21:57:41]<random> sure
[21:58:34]<Robert> If I sent an emailer out would everyone try to reply with 
there availiblity?
[21:58:57]<Robert> Random would mike or others involved in Jamaica be 
interested in a staff meeting or not until we are a bit more orginized?
[21:59:38]<random> mike and ryan are maily the folks Ideal with regularly
[21:59:58]<random> sort of depends on te agenda I suppose
[22:00:44]<jojo> Robert - what is a staff meeting as opposed to a weekly 
meeting (PMC meeting i understand is what we used to have - just PMC )
[22:01:05]<jojo> and is it different to a 'Development meeting" eg wehre the 
dev team might meet for dev discussion
[22:02:42]<Robert> Jo, in my mind, a staff meeting is anyone on the team, 
Maybe I should call it a PMC meeting but I think the temr is of no 
importance. The point of the first would be to get things orginized, get 
everyone on the same page, thatway future community and PMC meetings will be 
more useful
[22:02:43]<jojo> The weekly meeting used to be the place were 
committers/devs/pmc/translators or w/e got to gether to discuss things- like 
this one
[22:02:56]<jojo> PMC meeting used to be just PMC
[22:03:04]<jojo> Weekly meetings then used to be what you call staff 
meetings
[22:03:11]<random> past is past
[22:03:14]<jojo> i know
[22:03:17]<random> robert can do as he wants
[22:03:22]<jojo> i'm just trying to determine what is meant random
[22:03:38]<jojo> eg we have a weekly meeting now
[22:03:45]<jojo> i dont' know what the difference is to the staff meeting
[22:04:30]<jojo> so now - the weekly meeting is not therefore a time for 
discussion of issues surrounding the project?
[22:04:32]<jojo> ie this one?
[22:04:41]<jojo> it's a 'community meeting' whatever that means?
[22:05:20]<Robert> Sure it is Jo, but I would like to have a meeting with 
the team to get some things hammered out so these community meetings might 
be more fruitful.
[22:05:33]<jojo> ok - so that's what i didnt' understand
[22:05:39]<jojo> This weekly meeting is not what i thought it was
[22:05:56]<jojo> ie it was/is i thought - for all members of the team to 
come in and discuss issues surrounding the project
[22:06:02]<jojo> but now it's something different
[22:06:13]<jojo> 'community' - whatever that is
[22:06:35]<jojo> in the past the weekly meeting was therefore the staff 
meeting by any other name - and it was open to the community
[22:06:45]<jojo> now it's changed - i'm still not sure what community 
meeting is then
[22:07:19]<jojo> cept yet another meeting :)
[22:07:34]<random> seems to me it's pretty clear from the agenda what gets 
discussed
[22:07:46]<jojo> sure - that's not the question tho
[22:08:30]<jojo> guess i'll leave you all to work it out then
[22:08:35]<jojo> have to go - monday morning
[22:08:37]<jojo> always a rush here
[22:08:45]<Robert> A staff meeting will be closed for the staff. this is a 
community meeting IE open to everyone. Very simple to understand. I hope 
there will be little neet for staff only meetings. The idea though is to 
have a meeting about the project without all the noise
[22:08:46]<random> robert, not sure if I answered your question though
[22:09:02]<jojo> in the past staff meetings were OPEN
[22:09:16]<jojo> they were xaraya project meetings - ie the project is an 
open community
[22:09:24]<jojo> the PMC meetings were closed - so
[22:09:28]<jojo> just confirming this is changed now
[22:09:36]<jojo> the xaraya project is now closed to the public?
[22:09:54]<random> oh stop already
[22:10:11]<Robert> Jo if you want to play word games I will have to ask you 
to leave
[22:10:15]<jojo> look
[22:10:19]<jojo> it's not a word game
[22:10:25]<jojo> i simplly asked what is the definition of them
[22:10:29]<jojo> it's changed obviously
[22:10:32]<Robert> Yes it is, two people have asked you to stop please do 
it.
[22:10:34]<jojo> stop being so pig headed all of you
[22:10:42]<jojo> and numbers don't mean a thing
[22:10:46]<jojo> it just means the usual ganging up
[22:10:55]<jojo> ok - put it this way
[22:11:00]<jojo> What is the Community Meeting for?
[22:11:03]<jojo> if it's not a staff meeting
[22:11:12]<jojo> that's all i'm asking - so i can get is straight
[22:11:29]<jojo> as it seems to have changed - i was under a wrong 
impression
[22:11:32]<St_Kerouac> sounds like a semantic argument
[22:11:41]<Robert> No Jo you are twisting things as par normal if you can 
not or will not respect the project, I would question why you bother coming.
[22:11:41]<jojo> well it's not if robert has separated them out
[22:11:50]<jojo> Robert - you're the one that separated them
[22:11:54]<jojo> i'm asking what is the difference
[22:12:06]<jojo> i'm not twisting anything - i'm asking for clarification
[22:12:09]<St_Kerouac> organization
[22:12:18]<St_Kerouac> that is what i picked up as being the key diff
[22:12:21]<jojo> what is the community meetinug for?
[22:12:24]<jojo> is that a clearer question?
[22:12:36]<St_Kerouac> to organize the project
[22:12:47]<jojo> the community meeting is to organize the project?
[22:12:54]<jojo> sigh i'm totally confused now
[22:13:03]<St_Kerouac> like i said, a semantic argument
[22:13:09]<jojo> well why is there 2 meetings
[22:13:17]<jojo> that's basically what it boils down to right?
[22:13:37]<St_Kerouac> one would be the one we're all used to
[22:13:43]<jojo> ie like this one
[22:13:44]<St_Kerouac> the other would be the PMC getting together to 
discuss things
[22:13:54]<jojo> oh a PMC meeting
[22:13:56]<jojo> ok
[22:14:01]<jojo> i thoguht that was separate again
[22:14:10]<St_Kerouac> [17:23] Robert: A staff meeting will be closed for 
the staff. this is a community meeting IE open to everyone. Very simple to 
understand. I hope there will be little neet for staff only meetings. The 
idea though is to have a meeting about the project without all the noise
[22:14:23]<jojo> yep and that's when i said
[22:14:27]<jojo> is the project closed now
[22:14:33]<jojo> as previously all 'staff' meetings were open
[22:14:41]<jojo> PMC meetings were the only ones that were closed
[22:14:49]<St_Kerouac> you lost me there
[22:15:01]<jojo> well i'm lost
[22:15:12]<jojo> Robert said there were Staff meetings and Community 
meetings
[22:15:19]<St_Kerouac> right
[22:15:21]<jojo> and i assumed you also had your closed PMC meetings
[22:15:24]<St_Kerouac> no
[22:15:27]<St_Kerouac> Robert is PMC
[22:15:28]<jojo> ie PMC are managers -not staff
[22:15:34]<St_Kerouac> when he says "stafff" he means PMC
[22:15:38]<jojo> staff to me is the committers, developers, translators
[22:15:42]<jojo> helpers on the forums
[22:15:43]<jojo> and so on
[22:15:46]<jojo> 'community'
[22:15:47]<St_Kerouac> again, like i said a semantic difference.
[22:15:47]<Robert> I said I wanted to have A staff/pmc/team meeting to get 
orginized.
[22:15:57]<jojo> ok - so one meeting - not 3
[22:16:02]<St_Kerouac> 2
[22:16:05]<Robert> Again you are playing word games so may we please move 
on?
[22:16:05]<jojo> lol
[22:16:07]<St_Kerouac> this one and the pmc staff meeting
[22:16:09]<jojo> look
[22:16:12]<jojo> i'm confused
[22:16:18]<St_Kerouac> nothing to be confused about
[22:16:18]<jojo> is it 1 meeting , 2 or 3
[22:16:25]<St_Kerouac> there is this meeting and there is the closed one 
with the pmc only
[22:16:30]<jojo> fine
[22:16:31]<St_Kerouac> why do you keep insisting on 3
[22:16:31]<St_Kerouac> ?
[22:16:40]<jojo> because Robert said he wanted to organize a staff meeting
[22:16:43]<jojo> it's a new term here
[22:16:47]<jojo> at least for me
[22:16:48]<Robert> Jo no the project is not closed. Yes the PMC and all team 
memebers need to have A meeting at least to get orginized so all other 
aspects of the project can run better. It is that simple
[22:17:00]<jojo> so that's what you call a Staff meeting?
[22:17:08]<jojo> and it's separate from these weekly meetings?
[22:17:13]<St_Kerouac> if yer part of the pmc, it is
[22:17:16]<jojo> right - so i was correct, Stego is wrong
[22:17:22]<jojo> there are 3 meetings planned
[22:17:26]<Robert> Jo stop playing word games
[22:17:27]<St_Kerouac> huh?
[22:17:37]<jojo> Robert - stop telling me i'm playing games
[22:17:40]<jojo> it's just wasting time
[22:17:41]<Robert> Can we please move on to the next topic?
[22:17:52]<jojo> I'm sure Stego isn't even sure what u meant now
[22:17:57]<random> back
[22:18:01]<St_Kerouac> playing games because there is only one meeting you 
need to be concerned with so the entire argument is moot
[22:18:13]<jojo> Stego - well that's why i'm not sure
[22:18:20]<St_Kerouac> if there are other meetings, those of us that are 
supposed to be in them will know about them
[22:18:25]<jojo> in the past - anyone that contributed is part of this new 
'staff' term
[22:18:39]<jojo> now it seems to be different - it's separated out
[22:18:39]<St_Kerouac> and that's "anyone"
[22:18:46]<St_Kerouac> the "staff meeting" is for NOT "everyone"
[22:18:51]<St_Kerouac> it's for a select few, not the gp
[22:19:02]<jojo> so it is different - right
[22:19:07]<jojo> it's closed now
[22:19:09]<random> robert; as to mike and ryan, both are mainly interested 
in development topics
[22:19:26]<random> so probably lesss interested in the organizatinal stuff
[22:19:29]<St_Kerouac> we have this one public meeting that god and his 
granny get to attend and then there will be another meeting that god doesn't 
get invited to cuz he isn't on the pmc or another primary team member
[22:19:43]<St_Kerouac> but that doesn't make it 3 meetings
[22:19:46]<jojo> Stego - right - what i thought
[22:19:56]<jojo> well - i didn't realize you never had PMC meetings
[22:19:58]<jojo> with just the PMC
[22:20:10]<St_Kerouac> we didn't?
[22:20:30]<Robert> Thanks Radom for the heads up.
[22:20:38]<jojo> you just said you had PMC and staff together - but not 
community
[22:20:41]<Robert> No that its cleared up may we move forward?
[22:20:44]<jojo> so i dunno
[22:20:46]<Robert> Now*
[22:20:47]<St_Kerouac> for a weekly, yeah
[22:20:51]<random> not that I'm all that interested myself :
[22:20:54]<St_Kerouac> plenty of meetings, just nothing planned on a regular 
basis
[22:20:58]<St_Kerouac> no need for it
[22:21:00]<random> but I'm available
[22:21:01]<jojo> well i think stego and robert are talking differnt things
[22:21:07]<St_Kerouac> irrelevant
[22:21:13]<St_Kerouac> there is still only one meeting of concern
[22:21:16]<jojo> Stego - do you have PMC meetings - out of interest?
[22:21:23]<jojo> ie iwth Just PMC?
[22:21:23]<St_Kerouac> most certainly
[22:21:32]<jojo> lol ok then there are 3 meetings
[22:21:38]<jojo> thankns for clarifying
[22:21:39]<St_Kerouac> no
[22:21:48]<St_Kerouac> if you want to play THAT semantic game, there are 
over 40 meetings
[22:21:52]<jojo> loo
[22:21:53]<jojo> k
[22:21:56]<jojo> PMC meeting
[22:22:06]<jojo> this "STaff" meeting just raised
[22:22:06]<St_Kerouac> since we meet several times a day, unplanned, on 
different days throughout the week, at different times
[22:22:12]<jojo> and a separate community meeting
[22:22:20]<St_Kerouac> so if you want to LABEL it a MEETING every time we 
get together, then, yeah, 40+
[22:22:31]<jojo> i dunno - i'm going by what i just heard
[22:22:32]<St_Kerouac> my, bad, i lied when i said 2
[22:22:38]<jojo> i'm not privy to what you discuss multiple times a week
[22:22:41]<jojo> just the info here
[22:22:49]<St_Kerouac> so, Rob, catch you at meeting #23 later?
[22:22:58]<Robert> Yes Chad
[22:23:01]<jojo> it's clear reading back 3 meetings: PMC, "Staff" and this 
weekly community
[22:23:06]<St_Kerouac> werd up, mah brutha!
[22:23:19]<St_Kerouac> Toh-mah-toe
[22:23:24]<jojo> and all i asked was to clarify then what happens in 
community meetings as oposed to staff meetings
[22:23:38]<jojo> sure sounds like it lol
[22:23:42]<St_Kerouac> which implies they occur
[22:23:45]<jojo> more timein meetings than doing other things
[22:23:59]<jojo> this one must have been going 3 hours now
[22:24:03]<jojo> if it started at 5
[22:24:13]<St_Kerouac> documentation?
[22:24:17]<Robert> Since we can't more forward I think we should call an end 
to the meeting
[22:24:34]<jojo> Robert - did yo usee the issue i raised?
[22:24:38]<jojo> re the newsgroups?
[22:24:41]<jojo> can that be added please
[22:25:02]<St_Kerouac> 
http://groups.google.com/group/xaraya/web/xaraya-manual
[22:25:09]<Robert> It is on a long todo list of things to look into when 
ever I get any sort of server access ;)
[22:25:19]<jojo> yeah athat's another issue
[22:25:25]<jojo> why did everyone get their access removed
[22:25:27]<jojo> from the server
[22:25:30]<jojo> the website
[22:25:32]<St_Kerouac> gremlins
[22:25:33]<jojo> IRC etc
[22:25:42]<jojo> all committers current and past
[22:25:47]<St_Kerouac> there was a hard drive corruption on the ACL
[22:25:55]<jojo> ok
[22:26:00]<St_Kerouac> either that or somethign carbon based happened to it
[22:26:03]<jojo> and the website?
[22:26:05]<St_Kerouac> the logs refuse to say
[22:26:19]<jojo> well i know Dracos took me off specifically
[22:26:29]<Robert> Since Random has to leave I think we will have to finish 
the Agenda at a later date. Any objections?
[22:26:40]<jojo> what else was there?
[22:26:41]<St_Kerouac> none
[22:27:09]<jojo> Robert - are there weekly PMC meetings and weekly staff 
meetings?
[22:27:16]<Robert> ###### Meeting Ends ######