Re: Count me in
Katherine Mcmillan <[email protected]> Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:39:55 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.db.postgresql.advocacy |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAMsu0zFZUC5D8pb9WObtda5_2Y=tHfS1Q_+6w7CZyJ0jaupa7w@mail.gmail.com> |
--000000000000142fc50595588ba6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi there, I've decided I no longer want to be involved with this initiative, please remove me from the list. Katie On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 7:30 PM Stephen Frost <[email protected]> wrote: > Greetings, > > * Valeria Kaplan ([email protected]) wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:52 PM Stephen Frost <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > * Valeria Kaplan ([email protected]) wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 11:50 PM Stephen Frost <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > * Valeria Kaplan ([email protected]) wrote: > > > > > > I gave a talk at pgconf.eu about marketing and proposed an idea > of > > > > > having a > > > > > > centralised working group that will be initiating and > implementing > > > > > advocacy > > > > > > and marketing activities that will develop and strengthen > Postgres > > > brand. > > > > > > > > > > This sounds very much like what this list is actually intended to > be, > > > > > with a set of smaller groups who manage particular activities > (Press > > > > > Releases, Twitter, Updates to postgresql.org, etc). > > > > > > > > > > What would be different with this "working group"..? > > > > > > > > First, if there is a list somewhere listing all those different > subgroups > > > > and who is a part of them can you please direct me since that would > be > > > > incredibly helpful. > > > > > > Unfortunately there isn't a public list that I'm aware of (I've > actually > > > pushed for that in some discussions in the past; in particular, I > > > believe it'd be good to have something similar to: > > > https://www.debian.org/intro/organization ). > > > > That's a cool example! Agree, something like that would be great. > > Yeah, I don't think it'd actually be all that hard to add support for > pulling that information from the PGLister system to populate a webpage > on the main site (of course, Magnus will probably correctly point out > that those are different systems and it won't be as easy as I'm > suggesting, etc, and then someone else will complain that maybe not > everyone on a given mailing list should be listed as a member of that > 'team', and then we'll get some additional bikeshedding happening...). > > Perhaps we should take this particular part of the discussion out of > this thread and start a new thread with it on -www, so we can argue to > our heart's content about it? > > > > The closest that we have to a formal list of who is on what team is the > > > membership on the relevant mailing lists (... most of which are > private, > > > and we don't disclose membership explicitly anyway). There's some > teams > > > we have where we duplicate the list membership (I believe anyway, I've > > > not specifically verified it) between the list system and the .Org > > > website (thinking of Core and Coc here as examples). This would also > go > > > towards improving things around recognition of contributions to the > > > project, especially when those contributions are not code and therefore > > > don't get recognized through our git history. > > > > > Oh man, it's a shame you couldn't come to Milano :( , you'd be a great > > addition to the group. > > I'm doing my best to try and be helpful even though I wasn't there. :) > > > I'm putting some notes and action from our meeting here together and > we'll > > be sharing once they are final with the mailing list early next week. > > Yes, I saw those, thanks for that! > > > > > The idea is to have a small group that can be strategic about all the > > > > different activities that need to be done for Postgres and will be > very > > > > active (have regular catch ups and follow ups, will move activities > > > forward > > > > and so on). One of the problems with a mailing list that there is a > > > problem > > > > that people tend to "hide" behind the list if there is a need for > some > > > > action. Also, it is much easier to have a manageable size group of > up to > > > > about 10 people to actually function (that's from my personal > experience > > > so > > > > maybe you'd have a different opinion on that). > > > > > > I tend to agree with the concerns about "regular/open" mailing lists, > > > and that each team should work to have a cadence of some kind, with > > > reports being made to a larger body. > > > > > > This was attempted at the PGCon Developer meeting earlier this year, > > > though with an attempt to go across all of the teams we have in the > > > project (notes available here: > > > https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PgCon_2019_Developer_Meeting ). Teams > > > were reached out to asked to provide a name or two to join the meeting > > > and then provide an update to all the other individuals invited to that > > > meeting, notionally to the project leadership in the form of Core and > > > the committers. > > > > > > What's being discussed here sounds like an attempt to add a level > > > between the annual PGCon meeting (presuming it continues in a similar > > > fashion next year... I don't know if it will, or not) and the various > > > specific teams (web, twitter, et al). A more formal "advocacy" team > > > which has actual/regular meetings and works across the different > > > platforms to send a consistent message and has a higher touch frequency > > > than an annual meeting. > > > > > > There's value in that in a couple ways. First is that advocacy should > > > certainly be a discussion that's ongoing throughout the year, and an > > > annual touchpoint isn't frequent enough. Second, the overall advocacy > > > team could provide a single report to the annual meeting and that might > > > be more efficient for that meeting (there's only one spot in the agenda > > > for that as recorded, though my recollection is that there was some > > > difficulty figuring out who from what team should be invited and asked > > > to provide an update as there's a number of different teams with > > > different individuals on them, not all of whom know what's going on > with > > > the other teams..). Having each of the working-level teams ("working > > > groups"?) having to regularly report up to another group would also > > > hopefully encourage them to have their own regular meetings and take > > > more responsibility to ensure that things are happening. > > > > yup, my thinking exactly. > > Great. > > > I didn't realise there is also an annual (developer meeting) gathering > > where one could report about advocacy was in place already, that's cool. > > Well, it's only happened once so far that advocacy was explicitly > brought up as a topic and included/reported on. :) I'd like that to > continue, as I feel it's an important part of project maintenance, but > that meeting is pretty difficult to work out who should/shouldn't be > there and we can't really make it a larger group than it is without it > becoming quite difficult to actually manage the discussion. > > > > > This is not to say that there isn't a place for advocacy mailing list > > > and I > > > > think it actually a perfect forum to bring forward the shortlisted > and > > > > structured tasks that the smaller working group come with and ask for > > > > members on the list to join a specific activites (for example the > Twitter > > > > managing team , as you have now). > > > > > > Sure, I can agree with that, and the middle-level group being discussed > > > above could also be tasked to provide regular reports or meeting > minutes > > > to this list. > > > > > I'm planning to put our minutes on wiki once they are finalised. > > Ok, thanks. Let's try to focus on specific, actionable, tasks and then > get assignment made for them- and let's try to make sure we include > relevant individuals from the NPOs too when it comes to things like > meetup.com and such. > > Thanks again! > > Stephen > --000000000000142fc50595588ba6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi there,<div><br></div><div>I've decided I no longer = want to be involved with this initiative, please remove me from the list.</= div><div><br></div><div>Katie</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di= v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 7:30 PM Stephen = Frost <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0= px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Greetings= ,<br> <br> * Valeria Kaplan (<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">vk@= dataegret.com</a>) wrote:<br> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:52 PM Stephen Frost <<a href=3D"mailto:sf= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> > > * Valeria Kaplan (<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_= blank">[email protected]</a>) wrote:<br> > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 11:50 PM Stephen Frost <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>>= <br> > > wrote:<br> > > > > * Valeria Kaplan (<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" t= arget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>) wrote:<br> > > > > > I gave a talk at <a href=3D"http://pgconf.eu" rel= =3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">pgconf.eu</a> about marketing and propose= d an idea of<br> > > > > having a<br> > > > > > centralised working group that will be initiating = and implementing<br> > > > > advocacy<br> > > > > > and marketing activities that will develop and str= engthen Postgres<br> > > brand.<br> > > > ><br> > > > > This sounds very much like what this list is actually i= ntended to be,<br> > > > > with a set of smaller groups who manage particular acti= vities (Press<br> > > > > Releases, Twitter, Updates to <a href=3D"http://postgre= sql.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">postgresql.org</a>, etc).<br> > > > ><br> > > > > What would be different with this "working group&q= uot;..?<br> > > ><br> > > > First, if there is a list somewhere listing all those differ= ent subgroups<br> > > > and who is a part of them can you please direct me since tha= t would be<br> > > > incredibly helpful.<br> > ><br> > > Unfortunately there isn't a public list that I'm aware of= (I've actually<br> > > pushed for that in some discussions in the past; in particular, I= <br> > > believe it'd be good to have something similar to:<br> > > <a href=3D"https://www.debian.org/intro/organization" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.debian.org/intro/organization</a> ).<= br> ><br> > That's a cool example! Agree, something like that would be great.<= br> <br> Yeah, I don't think it'd actually be all that hard to add support f= or<br> pulling that information from the PGLister system to populate a webpage<br> on the main site (of course, Magnus will probably correctly point out<br> that those are different systems and it won't be as easy as I'm<br> suggesting, etc, and then someone else will complain that maybe not<br> everyone on a given mailing list should be listed as a member of that<br> 'team', and then we'll get some additional bikeshedding happeni= ng...).<br> <br> Perhaps we should take this particular part of the discussion out of<br> this thread and start a new thread with it on -www, so we can argue to<br> our heart's content about it?<br> <br> > > The closest that we have to a formal list of who is on what team = is the<br> > > membership on the relevant mailing lists (... most of which are p= rivate,<br> > > and we don't disclose membership explicitly anyway).=C2=A0 Th= ere's some teams<br> > > we have where we duplicate the list membership (I believe anyway,= I've<br> > > not specifically verified it) between the list system and the .Or= g<br> > > website (thinking of Core and Coc here as examples).=C2=A0 This w= ould also go<br> > > towards improving things around recognition of contributions to t= he<br> > > project, especially when those contributions are not code and the= refore<br> > > don't get recognized through our git history.<br> > ><br> > Oh man, it's a shame you couldn't come to Milano :( , you'= d be a great<br> > addition to the group.<br> <br> I'm doing my best to try and be helpful even though I wasn't there.= :)<br> <br> > I'm putting some notes and action from our meeting here together a= nd we'll<br> > be sharing once they are final with the mailing list early next week.<= br> <br> Yes, I saw those, thanks for that!<br> <br> > > > The idea is to have a small group that can be strategic abou= t all the<br> > > > different activities that need to be done for Postgres and w= ill be very<br> > > > active (have regular catch ups and follow ups, will move act= ivities<br> > > forward<br> > > > and so on). One of the problems with a mailing list that the= re is a<br> > > problem<br> > > > that people tend to "hide" behind the list if ther= e is a need for some<br> > > > action. Also, it is much easier to have a manageable size gr= oup of up to<br> > > > about 10 people to actually function (that's from my per= sonal experience<br> > > so<br> > > > maybe you'd have a different opinion on that).<br> > ><br> > > I tend to agree with the concerns about "regular/open" = mailing lists,<br> > > and that each team should work to have a cadence of some kind, wi= th<br> > > reports being made to a larger body.<br> > ><br> > > This was attempted at the PGCon Developer meeting earlier this ye= ar,<br> > > though with an attempt to go across all of the teams we have in t= he<br> > > project (notes available here:<br> > > <a href=3D"https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PgCon_2019_Developer_= Meeting" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://wiki.postgresql.org/w= iki/PgCon_2019_Developer_Meeting</a> ). Teams<br> > > were reached out to asked to provide a name or two to join the me= eting<br> > > and then provide an update to all the other individuals invited t= o that<br> > > meeting, notionally to the project leadership in the form of Core= and<br> > > the committers.<br> > ><br> > > What's being discussed here sounds like an attempt to add a l= evel<br> > > between the annual PGCon meeting (presuming it continues in a sim= ilar<br> > > fashion next year...=C2=A0 I don't know if it will, or not) a= nd the various<br> > > specific teams (web, twitter, et al).=C2=A0 A more formal "a= dvocacy" team<br> > > which has actual/regular meetings and works across the different<= br> > > platforms to send a consistent message and has a higher touch fre= quency<br> > > than an annual meeting.<br> > ><br> > > There's value in that in a couple ways.=C2=A0 First is that a= dvocacy should<br> > > certainly be a discussion that's ongoing throughout the year,= and an<br> > > annual touchpoint isn't frequent enough. Second, the overall = advocacy<br> > > team could provide a single report to the annual meeting and that= might<br> > > be more efficient for that meeting (there's only one spot in = the agenda<br> > > for that as recorded, though my recollection is that there was so= me<br> > > difficulty figuring out who from what team should be invited and = asked<br> > > to provide an update as there's a number of different teams w= ith<br> > > different individuals on them, not all of whom know what's go= ing on with<br> > > the other teams..). Having each of the working-level teams ("= ;working<br> > > groups"?) having to regularly report up to another group wou= ld also<br> > > hopefully encourage them to have their own regular meetings and t= ake<br> > > more responsibility to ensure that things are happening.<br> ><br> > yup, my thinking exactly.<br> <br> Great.<br> <br> > I didn't realise there is also an annual (developer meeting) gathe= ring<br> > where one could report about advocacy was in place already, that's= cool.<br> <br> Well, it's only happened once so far that advocacy was explicitly<br> brought up as a topic and included/reported on. :)=C2=A0 I'd like that = to<br> continue, as I feel it's an important part of project maintenance, but<= br> that meeting is pretty difficult to work out who should/shouldn't be<br= > there and we can't really make it a larger group than it is without it<= br> becoming quite difficult to actually manage the discussion.<br> <br> > > > This is not to say that there isn't a place for advocacy= mailing list<br> > > and I<br> > > > think it actually a perfect forum to bring forward the short= listed and<br> > > > structured tasks that the smaller working group come with an= d ask for<br> > > > members on the list to join a specific activites (for exampl= e the Twitter<br> > > > managing team , as you have now).<br> > ><br> > > Sure, I can agree with that, and the middle-level group being dis= cussed<br> > > above could also be tasked to provide regular reports or meeting = minutes<br> > > to this list.<br> > ><br> > I'm planning to put our minutes on wiki once they are finalised.<b= r> <br> Ok, thanks.=C2=A0 Let's try to focus on specific, actionable, tasks and= then<br> get assignment made for them- and let's try to make sure we include<br> relevant individuals from the NPOs too when it comes to things like<br> <a href=3D"http://meetup.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">meetup.c= om</a> and such.<br> <br> Thanks again!<br> <br> Stephen<br> </blockquote></div> --000000000000142fc50595588ba6--