RE: Re: [hercules-390] Proxy Coupling Technology
"ron.hilton" <[email protected]> Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:50:17 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <C53F48F3C8604CF59D9FF76568862010@ronhp1> |
--vcmCuIpc6To9lRgwqwHvUmo0CkrS0tRV4MeAaZf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony, You wrote: > On 5 October 2010 13:07, ron.hilton <[email protected] > <mailto:ron.hilton%40comcast.net> > wrote: > > > You raise some good points, perhaps better addressed on Hercules- > advocacy. > > Yup - I'll continue there. 'cause it's probably going to get messy... :-) > > > I doubt that this would be the first time that proprietary mainframe > > software has been run on Hercules, and with the appropriate licenses it > > should be quite legal to do so. > > Well, it's unclear. IBM seems to have claimed that Hercules violates a > number of IBM patents on their hardware, so that would presumably have > nothing to do with what guest software is running on it. But of > course IBM has made a habit of obfuscation in this regard. Of course you are right. I was referring to legality from a software licensing standpoint only. Am I incorrect in assuming that at least some ISVs (with the notable exception of IBM) have licensed their software to run on Hercules? Or would PSC become the first to do so? > > > On the question of patents, let me first speak to the issue of software > > patentability. Although I am a strong advocate of open standards and > > open-source software, I think that there is no doubt that software, > > including Hercules and the programs that run on it, represents > patentable > > subject matter in general. > > We can agree to disagree. Thought for the day: what arguments in > favour of the patentability of software do not also argue in favour of > the patentability of movies? Copyrights protect the expression of ideas, whereas patents protect the ideas themselves. Both types of protection are potentially applicable to software. Only copyright protection is applicable to artistic expression such as movies. One can circumvent a copyright through an original re-expression of the idea, such as a "clean room" software rewrite. A patent protects the underlying concept and cannot be circumvented in that way. > > My advice to the open-source > > community, including Hercules, would be to quit fighting a losing battle > > against software patents. Instead, fight fire with fire. The best > defense > > against software patents is a good offense. Hercules should create or > join a > > "software patent commons" and actively start to build its own strong > patent > > portfolio. That is the way the patent system works - just like MAD > > ("mutually assured destruction"). A patent is a right to exclude others > from > > practicing an invention. Only when both sides have a patent arsenal does > > cooperation and progress occur. > > You know, this is rather like the advice given by Groklaw's Pamela > Jones to "get a lawyer". It may well be good advice, but it is utterly > infeasible for a small and unfunded group of developers to obtain > patents on anything. It is virtually impossible to even think about > patenting anything for under $10,000, and it's very rare to get in the > door for that. It is also very difficult to maintain the open source > development model while at the same time not jeopardizing > patentability by early publication. Not impossible, certainly, but > none of this is a good fit for the Hercules project. It's true that patents cost money, but they also have value. My suggestion would be to educate and equip the developers to timely file a provisional patent application on their own, which only involves a nominal fee, assigning the rights to the patent commons. Then the patent commons would have a year in which to reassign the patent to a corporate or other investor who wishes to commercialize it, with a license back to the patent commons that is perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, and non-transferable. At a minimum the assignee would have to agree to bear the cost of obtaining the patent, which as you say probably represents a value in the $10K range. Depending on its perceived value, they may also be willing to license other patents from their own portfolio to the patent commons, and/or pay cash. Thus the open-source project is protected, while the commercial entity has the capability to use it in its own for-profit products. The patent commons could also use any cash revenue thus obtained to purchase licenses to other patents held by third parties that may be applicable to the open-source project, or to fund the filing of low-cost provisionals on behalf of developers who are unable or unwilling to do so on their own. > > You've worked in at least one patent-savvy company; you surely > remember those ubiquitous page-numbered notebooks, and the corporate > infrastructure that was needed to comb through ordinary software > development to extract patentable matter. And you are perhaps aware > that there is at least one US patent pending *by someone else* on > material that was published and implemented in Hercules first. There's > a good chance that patent will issue, because no one has the resources > to stop it even at this early stage, let alone after it's been > accepted. > The US patent office is actually borrowing a leaf from the open-source world with their "peer-to-patent" pilot project. I think something like that will be the key to improving the quality/validity of patents in general. There is simply too much prior art for any one examiner to find. A community-based approach is the only practical answer. > > Regarding the PSC software, it is proprietary (e.g. copyrighted) and the > > proxy-coupling technology upon which it is based is also patent-pending. > But > > as you correctly pointed out, that intellectual property protection > applies > > only to the PCT-based "software" and not to "hardware" functionality in > > Hercules that exists now or may be developed in the future in response > to my > > proposal/invitation. > > Well I didn't really point that out; I don't know what PSC's pending > patents purport to cover. So "for greater certainty" or "for the > avoidance of doubt", as the contracts lawyers like to say, why not > have your organization state clearly that it will not assert any > patents related to this technology against Open Source hardware > emulators? I will state right here on the e-mail record that PSC will not assert any patents against Hercules or any other open-source mainframe hardware emulator. If and when Hercules creates a patent commons as described above, PSC will license its PCT patents to it on the terms indicated. Ron Hilton --vcmCuIpc6To9lRgwqwHvUmo0CkrS0tRV4MeAaZf Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Tony,<br> <br> You wrote:<br> <br> > On 5 October 2010 13:07, ron.hilton <<a href="mailto:ron.hilton%40comcast.net">[email protected]</a><br> > <mailto:ron.hilton%40comcast.net> > wrote:<br> > <br> > > You raise some good points, perhaps better addressed on Hercules-<br> > advocacy.<br> > <br> > Yup - I'll continue there. 'cause it's probably going to get messy... :-)<br> > <br> > > I doubt that this would be the first time that proprietary mainframe<br> > > software has been run on Hercules, and with the appropriate licenses it<br> > > should be quite legal to do so.<br> > <br> > Well, it's unclear. IBM seems to have claimed that Hercules violates a<br> > number of IBM patents on their hardware, so that would presumably have<br> > nothing to do with what guest software is running on it. But of<br> > course IBM has made a habit of obfuscation in this regard.<br> <br> Of course you are right. I was referring to legality from a software<br> licensing standpoint only. Am I incorrect in assuming that at least some<br> ISVs (with the notable exception of IBM) have licensed their software to run<br> on Hercules? Or would PSC become the first to do so?<br> <br> > <br> > > On the question of patents, let me first speak to the issue of software<br> > > patentability. Although I am a strong advocate of open standards and<br> > > open-source software, I think that there is no doubt that software,<br> > > including Hercules and the programs that run on it, represents<br> > patentable<br> > > subject matter in general.<br> > <br> > We can agree to disagree. Thought for the day: what arguments in<br> > favour of the patentability of software do not also argue in favour of<br> > the patentability of movies?<br> <br> Copyrights protect the expression of ideas, whereas patents protect the<br> ideas themselves. Both types of protection are potentially applicable to<br> software. Only copyright protection is applicable to artistic expression<br> such as movies. One can circumvent a copyright through an original<br> re-expression of the idea, such as a "clean room" software rewrite. A patent<br> protects the underlying concept and cannot be circumvented in that way.<br> <br> > > My advice to the open-source<br> > > community, including Hercules, would be to quit fighting a losing battle<br> > > against software patents. Instead, fight fire with fire. The best<br> > defense<br> > > against software patents is a good offense. Hercules should create or<br> > join a<br> > > "software patent commons" and actively start to build its own strong<br> > patent<br> > > portfolio. That is the way the patent system works - just like MAD<br> > > ("mutually assured destruction"). A patent is a right to exclude others<br> > from<br> > > practicing an invention. Only when both sides have a patent arsenal does<br> > > cooperation and progress occur.<br> > <br> > You know, this is rather like the advice given by Groklaw's Pamela<br> > Jones to "get a lawyer". It may well be good advice, but it is utterly<br> > infeasible for a small and unfunded group of developers to obtain<br> > patents on anything. It is virtually impossible to even think about<br> > patenting anything for under $10,000, and it's very rare to get in the<br> > door for that. It is also very difficult to maintain the open source<br> > development model while at the same time not jeopardizing<br> > patentability by early publication. Not impossible, certainly, but<br> > none of this is a good fit for the Hercules project.<br> <br> It's true that patents cost money, but they also have value. My suggestion<br> would be to educate and equip the developers to timely file a provisional<br> patent application on their own, which only involves a nominal fee,<br> assigning the rights to the patent commons. Then the patent commons would<br> have a year in which to reassign the patent to a corporate or other investor<br> who wishes to commercialize it, with a license back to the patent commons<br> that is perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, and non-transferable. At a<br> minimum the assignee would have to agree to bear the cost of obtaining the<br> patent, which as you say probably represents a value in the $10K range.<br> Depending on its perceived value, they may also be willing to license other<br> patents from their own portfolio to the patent commons, and/or pay cash.<br> Thus the open-source project is protected, while the commercial entity has<br> the capability to use it in its own for-profit products. The patent commons<br> could also use any cash revenue thus obtained to purchase licenses to other<br> patents held by third parties that may be applicable to the open-source<br> project, or to fund the filing of low-cost provisionals on behalf of<br> developers who are unable or unwilling to do so on their own.<br> <br> > <br> > You've worked in at least one patent-savvy company; you surely<br> > remember those ubiquitous page-numbered notebooks, and the corporate<br> > infrastructure that was needed to comb through ordinary software<br> > development to extract patentable matter. And you are perhaps aware<br> > that there is at least one US patent pending *by someone else* on<br> > material that was published and implemented in Hercules first. There's<br> > a good chance that patent will issue, because no one has the resources<br> > to stop it even at this early stage, let alone after it's been<br> > accepted.<br> > <br> <br> The US patent office is actually borrowing a leaf from the open-source world<br> with their "peer-to-patent" pilot project. I think something like that will<br> be the key to improving the quality/validity of patents in general. There is<br> simply too much prior art for any one examiner to find. A community-based<br> approach is the only practical answer.<br> <br> > > Regarding the PSC software, it is proprietary (e.g. copyrighted) and the<br> > > proxy-coupling technology upon which it is based is also patent-pending.<br> > But<br> > > as you correctly pointed out, that intellectual property protection<br> > applies<br> > > only to the PCT-based "software" and not to "hardware" functionality in<br> > > Hercules that exists now or may be developed in the future in response<br> > to my<br> > > proposal/invitation.<br> > <br> > Well I didn't really point that out; I don't know what PSC's pending<br> > patents purport to cover. So "for greater certainty" or "for the<br> > avoidance of doubt", as the contracts lawyers like to say, why not<br> > have your organization state clearly that it will not assert any<br> > patents related to this technology against Open Source hardware<br> > emulators?<br> <br> I will state right here on the e-mail record that PSC will not assert any<br> patents against Hercules or any other open-source mainframe hardware<br> emulator. If and when Hercules creates a patent commons as described above,<br> PSC will license its PCT patents to it on the terms indicated.<br> <br> Ron Hilton<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE: [hercules-advocacy] Re: [hercules-390] Proxy Coupling Technology" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE: [hercules-advocacy] Re: [hercules-390] Proxy Coupling Technology"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvazJta245BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk2MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyODYzOTEwMjY-?act=reply&messageNum=962">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlM25sNGM0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI4NjM5MTAyNg--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/954;_ylc=X3oDMTMyaGhjZTRlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk2MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyODYzOTEwMjYEdHBjSWQDOTU0">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">8</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbzl0NzJmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTI4NjM5MTAyNg--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdjkxb2Y3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjg2MzkxMDI2" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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