Re: What Are the Chances That CICS/VS will Be Available for DOS/VS Under Hercules???
"Robert" <dosvsoperator-/[email protected]> Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:58:15 -0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--6BDNmoRStZ2TBFZNUMT9SLk9FDjbEa9Wr9Za3SX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess all we can really hope for is a regime change at IBM - a new CEO who would take a nostalgic fancy to their old code and help support its use under Hercules, et al. I'd love to get all the manuals (especially the ANS COBOL ones), the old software (e.g. CICS/VS), etc., on CD/ROM for a fair price. It doesn't have to even go beyond providing support materials for the OSes which predate copyright protection. No DOS/VSE? No VSE/SP, etc.? I'm cool. Fortunately, my memory of some of the stuff I worked with back in 1979 is intact and improving. I have made good progress on my simple General Ledger project. I have the accounts on an ISAM file, plus some applications written to maintain it. I also have General Journal, account posting an trial balance programs working. It's nothing elaborate - only a handful of jobstreams - but it's working well... Yours truly, Robert S. Duncan --- In [email protected], "BruceTSmith" <brucetsmith@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Fish, > > I guess I agree with you guys, if we're talking about older z hardware, and even 390/ESA systems. > > But something like the 25 year old VSE/SP is a 24-bit S/370 OS. Are there any S/370 machines still in operation today? If so, there sure can't be many. I think about the only things left today that can even run VSE/SP are Hercules, and VM. :) > > I've never had a problem with IBM keeping their current software under lock and key. By current I mean stuff that is still "in production" today, making money for some company, and by default still making money for IBM. So that would include all the z and ESA based code. > > I can make the argument why a free / cheap "not for profit" education / hobby license would be a good thing for IBM, even for their current products. I'm sure that many new people would be attracted to the architecture, if they could get "hands on" time to learn it. Most of us old grey-beards are already gone, or nearing retirement, or have moved on to "more modern tech". IBM needs new people that understand the mainframe, it's obvious, and they've admitted as much more than once. > > Plus it would allow us old geeks to stay involved, when the time comes that we no longer have access to real iron. You know, if it wasn't for all of us old nerds that wrote those billions and billions of lines of Cobol, and Assembly, and Fortran, and RPG, and PL/1, and CICS, and C code, IBM would NOT be as successful as they are today, and that is a big fat fact! If we had a "hobby" license, we could continue to make contributions to the system. Some of those contributions may even "catch on", maybe even catch on the way Linux did. In the end it could result in IBM selling more hardware to support our code! Imagine that!!! :) :) :) > > On the other hand, I can somewhat understand why IBM may not want to offer such a license. Some people would abuse it, some would try to "make a profit", that's just the nature of some people. Still, I think they could enforce it. I'm all for going after anybody that runs "pirated" software, on any hardware, to make a fast buck... > > But S/370 operating systems and "program products"? I think they're about as close to "abandonware" as you can get. > > Hey IBM, since you're such a huge OPEN SOURCE promoter these days, with the grand Linux push, why not show the world how serious you are about open source. Give us the System/370 era code, like VSE/SP. That would be a great start... > > BTS :) > > --- In [email protected], "Fish" fish@ wrote: > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > (Thread moved from [H390-DOSVS] to here) > > > > > > Dave Wade wrote: > > > dosvsoperator wrote: > > > > > > > I can understand where IBM is coming from. They're scared > > > > that someone will try to run production IT of a "for profit" > > > > concern on a Hercules mainframe in violation of a license > > > > agreement! It's kind of a backhanded compliment to the emulator! > > > > > > I think the paranoid runs deeper than that. In the past the > > > maintenance money paid for Maintenance and there was no need to > > > force upgrades on folks. These days, like the rest of the > > > "computer" industry, the whole Mainframe Marketing Bandwagon > > > relies on selling frequent upgrades to both Hardware and Software. > > [...] > > > [...] you are caught in a never ending spiral or hardware and > > > software upgrades. [...] > > > > I think Dave has hit the nail on the head: the elimination of the > > "after-market" market (or more properly, the complete elimination of > > "hand-me-downs"). > > > > Thank about it. One company outgrows its capacity and must upgrade to a new > > more powerful model. Their existing hardware isn't powerful enough -- for > > them. But who's to say it's not plenty powerful enough for some other much > > smaller company who has also outgrown their existing capacity? Why can't > > company A's system which IT has outgrown be "handed down" to the much > > smaller company B? > > > > Because the software (specifically the operating system) required to RUN > > that system is no longer being licensed! You can only get it from IBM and > > IBM is no longer offering it. PURPOSELY. > > > > That younger brother of yours (or next door neighbor) who has outgrown his > > clothes has to go out and buy NEW clothes because the old clothes his older, > > bigger brother has outgrown is no longer available. The manufacturer has > > taken them back and is no longer offering them. In fact it wouldn't surprise > > me if they've destroyed them. > > > > And you of course can't use the newer operating systems on the older, > > smaller, less powerful hardware either because they're purposely designed to > > work only on the newer hardware that has all the specialized hardware and > > instructions that they require to run. > > > > End result? No more hand-me-downs. You MUST go out and buy new. > > > > If IBM continued to license (offer) older versions of its operating systems > > and software then they could be used by company B to run their enterprise on > > company A's old used hardware, and company B would thus have no incentive to > > purchase "new" hardware from IBM. The after-market market would grow and > > flourish! Older hardware would INCREASE in value as there would be more of a > > demand for it, and the sales volume of new hardware (and software!) would > > suffer as a result. > > > > In conclusion, to continue hoping that "maybe SOME day IBM will release > > [this/that old operating system/software]" is a complete waste of time in my > > personal opinion. It's just NOT going to happen. :( > > > > - -- > > "Fish" (David B. Trout) - fish@ > > Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! <http://www.cauce.org/> > > 7 reasons why HTML email is a bad thing > > http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml > > PGP key fingerprints: > > DH/DSS: 9F9B BAB0 BA7F C458 1A89 FE26 48F5 D7F4 C4EE 3E2A > > RSA: 6B37 7110 7201 9917 9B0D 99E3 55DB 5D58 FADE 4A52 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: PGP Desktop 9.8.0 (Build 2158) > > Charset: us-ascii > > > > wj8DBQFK4CW/SPXX9MTuPioRAv19AKCbJgBiZZOlZQBtPYLKz3mZVPK9IQCcDg2A > > K+TvIbUzcMEsdlC4ojHEND0= > > =z4rW > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --6BDNmoRStZ2TBFZNUMT9SLk9FDjbEa9Wr9Za3SX Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><br> I guess all we can really hope for is a regime change at IBM - a new CEO<br> who would take a nostalgic fancy to their old code and help support its<br> use under Hercules, et al. I'd love to get all the manuals (especially<br> the ANS COBOL ones), the old software (e.g. CICS/VS), etc., on CD/ROM<br> for a fair price. It doesn't have to even go beyond providing support<br> materials for the OSes which predate copyright protection. No DOS/VSE?<br> No VSE/SP, etc.? I'm cool.<br> <br> Fortunately, my memory of some of the stuff I worked with back in 1979<br> is intact and improving. I have made good progress on my simple General<br> Ledger project. I have the accounts on an ISAM file, plus some<br> applications written to maintain it. I also have General Journal,<br> account posting an trial balance programs working. It's nothing<br> elaborate - only a handful of jobstreams - but it's working well...<br> <br> Yours truly,<br> <br> Robert S. Duncan<br> --- In <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>, "BruceTSmith"<br> <brucetsmith@...> wrote:<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > Hi Fish,<br> ><br> > I guess I agree with you guys, if we're talking about older z<br> hardware, and even 390/ESA systems.<br> ><br> > But something like the 25 year old VSE/SP is a 24-bit S/370 OS. Are<br> there any S/370 machines still in operation today? If so, there sure<br> can't be many. I think about the only things left today that can even<br> run VSE/SP are Hercules, and VM. :)<br> ><br> > I've never had a problem with IBM keeping their current software under<br> lock and key. By current I mean stuff that is still "in production"<br> today, making money for some company, and by default still making money<br> for IBM. So that would include all the z and ESA based code.<br> ><br> > I can make the argument why a free / cheap "not for profit" education<br> / hobby license would be a good thing for IBM, even for their current<br> products. I'm sure that many new people would be attracted to the<br> architecture, if they could get "hands on" time to learn it. Most of us<br> old grey-beards are already gone, or nearing retirement, or have moved<br> on to "more modern tech". IBM needs new people that understand the<br> mainframe, it's obvious, and they've admitted as much more than once.<br> ><br> > Plus it would allow us old geeks to stay involved, when the time comes<br> that we no longer have access to real iron. You know, if it wasn't for<br> all of us old nerds that wrote those billions and billions of lines of<br> Cobol, and Assembly, and Fortran, and RPG, and PL/1, and CICS, and C<br> code, IBM would NOT be as successful as they are today, and that is a<br> big fat fact! If we had a "hobby" license, we could continue to make<br> contributions to the system. Some of those contributions may even "catch<br> on", maybe even catch on the way Linux did. In the end it could result<br> in IBM selling more hardware to support our code! Imagine that!!! :) :)<br> :)<br> ><br> > On the other hand, I can somewhat understand why IBM may not want to<br> offer such a license. Some people would abuse it, some would try to<br> "make a profit", that's just the nature of some people. Still, I think<br> they could enforce it. I'm all for going after anybody that runs<br> "pirated" software, on any hardware, to make a fast buck...<br> ><br> > But S/370 operating systems and "program products"? I think they're<br> about as close to "abandonware" as you can get.<br> ><br> > Hey IBM, since you're such a huge OPEN SOURCE promoter these days,<br> with the grand Linux push, why not show the world how serious you are<br> about open source. Give us the System/370 era code, like VSE/SP. That<br> would be a great start...<br> ><br> > BTS :)<br> ><br> > --- In <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>, "Fish" fish@ wrote:<br> > ><br> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br> > > Hash: SHA1<br> > ><br> > > (Thread moved from [H390-DOSVS] to here)<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > Dave Wade wrote:<br> > > > dosvsoperator wrote:<br> > > ><br> > > > > I can understand where IBM is coming from. They're scared<br> > > > > that someone will try to run production IT of a "for profit"<br> > > > > concern on a Hercules mainframe in violation of a license<br> > > > > agreement! It's kind of a backhanded compliment to the emulator!<br> > > ><br> > > > I think the paranoid runs deeper than that. In the past the<br> > > > maintenance money paid for Maintenance and there was no need to<br> > > > force upgrades on folks. These days, like the rest of the<br> > > > "computer" industry, the whole Mainframe Marketing Bandwagon<br> > > > relies on selling frequent upgrades to both Hardware and Software.<br> > > [...]<br> > > > [...] you are caught in a never ending spiral or hardware and<br> > > > software upgrades. [...]<br> > ><br> > > I think Dave has hit the nail on the head: the elimination of the<br> > > "after-market" market (or more properly, the complete elimination of<br> > > "hand-me-downs").<br> > ><br> > > Thank about it. One company outgrows its capacity and must upgrade<br> to a new<br> > > more powerful model. Their existing hardware isn't powerful enough<br> -- for<br> > > them. But who's to say it's not plenty powerful enough for some<br> other much<br> > > smaller company who has also outgrown their existing capacity? Why<br> can't<br> > > company A's system which IT has outgrown be "handed down" to the<br> much<br> > > smaller company B?<br> > ><br> > > Because the software (specifically the operating system) required to<br> RUN<br> > > that system is no longer being licensed! You can only get it from<br> IBM and<br> > > IBM is no longer offering it. PURPOSELY.<br> > ><br> > > That younger brother of yours (or next door neighbor) who has<br> outgrown his<br> > > clothes has to go out and buy NEW clothes because the old clothes<br> his older,<br> > > bigger brother has outgrown is no longer available. The manufacturer<br> has<br> > > taken them back and is no longer offering them. In fact it wouldn't<br> surprise<br> > > me if they've destroyed them.<br> > ><br> > > And you of course can't use the newer operating systems on the<br> older,<br> > > smaller, less powerful hardware either because they're purposely<br> designed to<br> > > work only on the newer hardware that has all the specialized<br> hardware and<br> > > instructions that they require to run.<br> > ><br> > > End result? No more hand-me-downs. You MUST go out and buy new.<br> > ><br> > > If IBM continued to license (offer) older versions of its operating<br> systems<br> > > and software then they could be used by company B to run their<br> enterprise on<br> > > company A's old used hardware, and company B would thus have no<br> incentive to<br> > > purchase "new" hardware from IBM. The after-market market would grow<br> and<br> > > flourish! Older hardware would INCREASE in value as there would be<br> more of a<br> > > demand for it, and the sales volume of new hardware (and software!)<br> would<br> > > suffer as a result.<br> > ><br> > > In conclusion, to continue hoping that "maybe SOME day IBM will<br> release<br> > > [this/that old operating system/software]" is a complete waste of<br> time in my<br> > > personal opinion. It's just NOT going to happen. :(<br> > ><br> > > - --<br> > > "Fish" (David B. Trout) - fish@<br> > > Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! <<a href="http://www.cauce.org/">http://www.cauce.org/</a>><br> > > 7 reasons why HTML email is a bad thing<br> > > <a href="http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml">http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml</a><br> > > PGP key fingerprints:<br> > > DH/DSS: 9F9B BAB0 BA7F C458 1A89 FE26 48F5 D7F4 C4EE 3E2A<br> > > RSA: 6B37 7110 7201 9917 9B0D 99E3 55DB 5D58 FADE 4A52<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br> > > Version: PGP Desktop 9.8.0 (Build 2158)<br> > > Charset: us-ascii<br> > ><br> > > wj8DBQFK4CW/SPXX9MTuPioRAv19AKCbJgBiZZOlZQBtPYLKz3mZVPK9IQCcDg2A<br> > > K+TvIbUzcMEsdlC4ojHEND0=<br> > > =z4rW<br> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br> > ><br> ><br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:dosvsoperator-/[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20What%20Are%20the%20Chances%20That%20CICS%2FVS%20will%20Be%20Available%20for%20DOS%2FVS%20Under%20Hercules%3F%3F%3F" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20What%20Are%20the%20Chances%20That%20CICS%2FVS%20will%20Be%20Available%20for%20DOS%2FVS%20Under%20Hercules%3F%3F%3F"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvbmU1bWVlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyOTM0NjkxMDY-?act=reply&messageNum=967">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcWtqdDkyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI5MzQ2OTEwNg--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/815;_ylc=X3oDMTMyaGI4MmIyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyOTM0NjkxMDYEdHBjSWQDODE1">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">9</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2Y0aTZ0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTI5MzQ2OTEwNg--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcWhqaWplBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjkzNDY5MTA2" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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