RE: Re: Pushing back the barriers and being demolished by IBM
"ron.hilton" <[email protected]> Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:18:08 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
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| Message-ID | <202A0761116A4A439B8F3595BC557703@ronhp1> |
--ILs1GxKPnDszPt31LfBGrciTz2RJ4j0OTfZ59Z1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger, As a registered independent US patent agent, I would be willing to provide some limited pro bono assistance to Hercules. My small, part-time solo practice is devoted exclusively to provisional patent applications (PPAs) which as you may know are only valid for one year, and must be followed up by a regular, non-provisional utility application (NPA). With a client who is willing to roll up their sleeves and do some of the work, I can typically keep the cost of a PPA under $1K. Of that, I would be willing to waive all but filing fee (about $100) for a limited number of Hercules PPAs. When it comes time to file the NPA, that's where it starts to get more expensive, but you have a year to try to raise the funds. Here's a possible sequence for how it could work: 1. Hercules developer agrees to license any patents which may be applicable to IBM mainframe technology to Hercules for non-commercial use, with a provision permitting Hercules to sublicense them to IBM for commercial use. You would need to get the services of an attorney to draft this agreement and create the legal entity that would hold the licensed patent rights for Hercules (the "patents common"). I am not a lawyer so I can't help you there. Someone would have to come up with the money for that. 2. Hercules developer invents a patentable idea, and writes up a thorough description of it including block diagrams and flow charts. 3. Hercules developer runs the idea by other developers, privately under NDA (you might want the attorney to help in drafting the NDA as well). This internal review should be done privately, not on a forum like this. Although there is a one year grace period if the invention is disclosed publicly, you don't want to go there. That's a fall-back for inventors who didn't know better to keep things confidential before filing, and is risky. 4. After the internal Hercules review, the invention would be submitted to me to do a cursory prior art search, edit the description as necessary, develop an initial set of claims, and file a PPA (developer pays the filing fee only). 5. Now the invention can be discussed in public, if necessary. 6. The developer/inventor has a year to decide whether to take the next step of filing an NPA, and raise money if necessary. If the developer is not rich and altruistic enough to personally pay for the NPA, they would need to find an investor during that one-year period of PPA pendency. Investors need to see a return on their investment. Although the developer has agreed to license the invention for non-commercial Hercules use and commercial IBM use, they would still retain the rights for commercial non-IBM use. For example, if someone wanted to commercialize Hercules (e.g. TurboHercules), they would have to obtain a separate license from the developer/inventor. The royalties from that license could then be used to provide a return to the investor(s). Regarding the fact that IBM has a huge and growing patent portfolio, that benefits them in the sense that it becomes overwhelming for Hercules to prove non-infringement. But it would only take one really good Hercules patent, that IBM needs in order to move forward with their product plans, to bring them to the bargaining table. The discussion at that point has moved beyond the question of infringement, which is tacitly acknowledged by the fact that a license is being negotiated. Depending on the strength and number of Hercules patents, and how badly IBM needs them, it might even be possible to negotiate a free or nominal hobbyist license for IBM software products on Hercules for non-commercial use. One other point that bears repeating is that the Hercules license (in 1. above) should cover patents which are applicable to IBM mainframe technology in general, not just applicable to Hercules. Otherwise it only provides leverage with respect to IBM's emulation efforts, which are very limited (e.g. z/PDT). Hercules needs to develop more general mainframe-related intellectual property (IP) to really get IBM's attention. The Hercules developers are a savvy bunch of mainframe experts. If they put their thinking caps on, and look ahead to where IBM is likely to go with their future mainframe plans, they may be able to come up with some really good IP that IBM would want to have. Basically, they need to think like a troll, but with a white hat for the good of Hercules, not a black hat for their own benefit. In this regard, I have already pointed out one potentially fruitful area for Hercules IP, which is interoperability with non-mainframe hardware and software (as you may recall, I brought this up in connection with the "proxy coupling" technology that I am currently developing). IBM's latest mainframe product, with its "hybrid" capability, would seem to be signaling a move in that direction. BTW, I believe that some of the IP we developed at PSI has been incorporated by IBM into their hybrid technology. A small group of developers can really make an impact if they set their minds to it. Thanks, Ron Hilton _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 7:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [hercules-advocacy] Re: Pushing back the barriers and being demolished by IBM --- In [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> , Ron Hilton wrote: > The best remedy is a commercial one, which is to develop one's > own IP portfolio. As I have stated before on this forum, the > best defense is a good offense when it comes to IP. Has Hercules > yet considered creating or joining a software patent commons? > The key would be to develop at least one high-value patent that > IBM needs or wants for their proprietary mainframe product plans. > Then Hercules would then have some leverage to induce IBM to > put their mainframe IP into the software commons for non-commercial > use, in exchange for allowing them commercial use of the Hercules > IP. Ron, While I can see the logic in what you propose, I think you might be overestimating the wealth of the average Herculean. A previous note in this forum estimated the cost of filing a patent to be $10,000 minimum and probably a lot more. Just one patent is WAY out of the league of anything Herculeans could afford. And I don't see anyone else stepping up to pay for it. When you consider that IBM claims to have 40,000 patents already and is increasing that number by over 3000 per year (see http://www.ibm.com/ibm/licensing/patents/ ) it means that EVERY WORKING DAY they gain more than 10 new ways to stifle competitive invention. At that rate, even if we could afford the cost (and the peg to place on our nose while we file the patent application), filing for one or two patents as a strategy for combatting IBM's stranglehold on the mainframe marketplace seems to me like whistling in the wind. Kind regards, Roger Bowler Hercules "the people's mainframe" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --ILs1GxKPnDszPt31LfBGrciTz2RJ4j0OTfZ59Z1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Roger,<br> <br> As a registered independent US patent agent, I would be willing to provide<br> some limited pro bono assistance to Hercules. My small, part-time solo<br> practice is devoted exclusively to provisional patent applications (PPAs)<br> which as you may know are only valid for one year, and must be followed up<br> by a regular, non-provisional utility application (NPA). With a client who<br> is willing to roll up their sleeves and do some of the work, I can typically<br> keep the cost of a PPA under $1K. Of that, I would be willing to waive all<br> but filing fee (about $100) for a limited number of Hercules PPAs. When it<br> comes time to file the NPA, that's where it starts to get more expensive,<br> but you have a year to try to raise the funds. Here's a possible sequence<br> for how it could work:<br> <br> 1. Hercules developer agrees to license any patents which may be<br> applicable to IBM mainframe technology to Hercules for non-commercial use,<br> with a provision permitting Hercules to sublicense them to IBM for<br> commercial use. You would need to get the services of an attorney to draft<br> this agreement and create the legal entity that would hold the licensed<br> patent rights for Hercules (the "patents common"). I am not a lawyer so I<br> can't help you there. Someone would have to come up with the money for that.<br> 2. Hercules developer invents a patentable idea, and writes up a<br> thorough description of it including block diagrams and flow charts.<br> 3. Hercules developer runs the idea by other developers, privately<br> under NDA (you might want the attorney to help in drafting the NDA as well).<br> This internal review should be done privately, not on a forum like this.<br> Although there is a one year grace period if the invention is disclosed<br> publicly, you don't want to go there. That's a fall-back for inventors who<br> didn't know better to keep things confidential before filing, and is risky.<br> 4. After the internal Hercules review, the invention would be submitted<br> to me to do a cursory prior art search, edit the description as necessary,<br> develop an initial set of claims, and file a PPA (developer pays the filing<br> fee only).<br> 5. Now the invention can be discussed in public, if necessary.<br> 6. The developer/inventor has a year to decide whether to take the next<br> step of filing an NPA, and raise money if necessary.<br> <br> If the developer is not rich and altruistic enough to personally pay for the<br> NPA, they would need to find an investor during that one-year period of PPA<br> pendency. Investors need to see a return on their investment. Although the<br> developer has agreed to license the invention for non-commercial Hercules<br> use and commercial IBM use, they would still retain the rights for<br> commercial non-IBM use. For example, if someone wanted to commercialize<br> Hercules (e.g. TurboHercules), they would have to obtain a separate license<br> from the developer/inventor. The royalties from that license could then be<br> used to provide a return to the investor(s).<br> <br> Regarding the fact that IBM has a huge and growing patent portfolio, that<br> benefits them in the sense that it becomes overwhelming for Hercules to<br> prove non-infringement. But it would only take one really good Hercules<br> patent, that IBM needs in order to move forward with their product plans, to<br> bring them to the bargaining table. The discussion at that point has moved<br> beyond the question of infringement, which is tacitly acknowledged by the<br> fact that a license is being negotiated. Depending on the strength and<br> number of Hercules patents, and how badly IBM needs them, it might even be<br> possible to negotiate a free or nominal hobbyist license for IBM software<br> products on Hercules for non-commercial use.<br> <br> One other point that bears repeating is that the Hercules license (in 1.<br> above) should cover patents which are applicable to IBM mainframe technology<br> in general, not just applicable to Hercules. Otherwise it only provides<br> leverage with respect to IBM's emulation efforts, which are very limited<br> (e.g. z/PDT). Hercules needs to develop more general mainframe-related<br> intellectual property (IP) to really get IBM's attention. The Hercules<br> developers are a savvy bunch of mainframe experts. If they put their<br> thinking caps on, and look ahead to where IBM is likely to go with their<br> future mainframe plans, they may be able to come up with some really good IP<br> that IBM would want to have. Basically, they need to think like a troll, but<br> with a white hat for the good of Hercules, not a black hat for their own<br> benefit.<br> <br> In this regard, I have already pointed out one potentially fruitful area for<br> Hercules IP, which is interoperability with non-mainframe hardware and<br> software (as you may recall, I brought this up in connection with the "proxy<br> coupling" technology that I am currently developing). IBM's latest mainframe<br> product, with its "hybrid" capability, would seem to be signaling a move in<br> that direction. BTW, I believe that some of the IP we developed at PSI has<br> been incorporated by IBM into their hybrid technology. A small group of<br> developers can really make an impact if they set their minds to it.<br> <br> Thanks,<br> <br> Ron Hilton<br> <br> _____ <br> <br> From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler<br> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 7:55 AM<br> To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> Subject: [hercules-advocacy] Re: Pushing back the barriers and being<br> demolished by IBM<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> , Ron Hilton wrote:<br> > The best remedy is a commercial one, which is to develop one's<br> > own IP portfolio. As I have stated before on this forum, the<br> > best defense is a good offense when it comes to IP. Has Hercules<br> > yet considered creating or joining a software patent commons?<br> > The key would be to develop at least one high-value patent that<br> > IBM needs or wants for their proprietary mainframe product plans.<br> > Then Hercules would then have some leverage to induce IBM to<br> > put their mainframe IP into the software commons for non-commercial<br> > use, in exchange for allowing them commercial use of the Hercules<br> > IP.<br> <br> Ron,<br> <br> While I can see the logic in what you propose, I think you might be<br> overestimating the wealth of the average Herculean. A previous note in this<br> forum estimated the cost of filing a patent to be $10,000 minimum and<br> probably a lot more. Just one patent is WAY out of the league of anything<br> Herculeans could afford. And I don't see anyone else stepping up to pay for<br> it.<br> <br> When you consider that IBM claims to have 40,000 patents already and is<br> increasing that number by over 3000 per year (see<br> <a href="http://www.ibm.com/ibm/licensing/patents/">http://www.ibm.com/ibm/licensing/patents/</a> ) it means that EVERY WORKING DAY<br> they gain more than 10 new ways to stifle competitive invention. At that<br> rate, even if we could afford the cost (and the peg to place on our nose<br> while we file the patent application), filing for one or two patents as a<br> strategy for combatting IBM's stranglehold on the mainframe marketplace<br> seems to me like whistling in the wind.<br> <br> Kind regards,<br> Roger Bowler<br> Hercules "the people's mainframe"<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Re%3A%20Pushing%20back%20the%20barriers%20and%20being%20demolished%20by%20IBM" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Re%3A%20Pushing%20back%20the%20barriers%20and%20being%20demolished%20by%20IBM"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvMWNnYmtvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk5MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzMjA0MjcwOTY-?act=reply&messageNum=992">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlanZsMGRnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyMDQyNzA5Ng--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/985;_ylc=X3oDMTMyM2JkbDYxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk5MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzMjA0MjcwOTYEdHBjSWQDOTg1">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">8</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcmRscGZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyMDQyNzA5Ng--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ygrp-mkp" style="border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; clear: both; float: left; font-family: Arial; margin: 5px 0 10px 0; padding: 0 10px;"> <div id="hd" style="color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0;">MARKETPLACE</div> <div id="ads" style="margin-bottom: 10px;"> <div class="ad" style="color: #628C2A; font-family: Arial; font-weight: 700; padding: 0 0;"> <p><a href="http://global.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15oh3qner/M=493064.14543979.14562481.13298430/D=groups/S=1705007709:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1320434296/L=fbf5a2a6-0708-11e1-be93-870b4b8b5e5c/B=uNqUHUoGYnQ-/J=1320427096668676/K=xNGDNzoH6cdaG_ZzVy7U9A/A=6060255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj">Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! 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