RE: Re: Pushing back the barriers and being demolished by IBM
"ron.hilton" <[email protected]> Mon, 7 Nov 2011 08:20:50 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <B3789A3A990D437597C1DBD6A29F84D2@ronhp1> |
--aO8uW5MDan8ro0GS1ZUdhJikezDXSGf0tGa4Uc7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger, It is true that the investor's ability to recoup would be limited to commercial non-IBM use. They would not recoup anything from non-commercial Hercules or from IBM, and the investor would take that into account in valuing the investment. Your own venture TurboHercules is an example of where an investor might recoup. If you were successful in commercializing something that a Hercules developer invented and patented, even a modest royalty would likely provide a decent return on the low 5-figure investment to get the patent. It would not be up to the investor to mount an infringement lawsuit against IBM. That would be up to Hercules. Although Hercules essentially has no funds, if it had some truly valuable IP, there would likely be law firms willing to take the case on contingency. And IBM knows that, and thus would be motivated to settle, especially since Hercules would primarily be seeking non-monetary consideration (as long as lawyers don't need to get involved in a big way) such as immunity from IBM patents for non-commercial Hercules use, hobbyist software licensing, etc. Let me repeat that I am not a lawyer and am not offering legal advice. I'm just offering some limited pro-bono patent assistance. You need to get a lawyer to look into the whole idea if you think it might be worth pursuing. Thanks, Ron Hilton _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 7:16 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [hercules-advocacy] Re: Pushing back the barriers and being demolished by IBM --- In [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> , Ron Hilton wrote: ... > 6. The developer/inventor has a year to decide whether to take > the next step of filing an NPA, and raise money if necessary. > > If the developer is not rich and altruistic enough to personally > pay for the NPA, they would need to find an investor during that > one-year period of PPA pendency. Investors need to see a return on > their investment. Although the developer has agreed to license the > invention for non-commercial Hercules use and commercial IBM use, > they would still retain the rights for commercial non-IBM use. ... Ron, this all sounds ok except for two things: Firstly, what incentive would any investor have to pay for the patent to be filed? As we have seen from recent cases, IBM have various means at their disposal to enforce their monopoly in the mainframe space, making commercial use of the patent by anyone other than IBM almost impossible in practical terms. So it's difficult to see how such a patent would be of any value to an investor, especially if a hypothetical "Hercules Inc" has already granted IBM a license to use it. Secondly, there's not just the cost of filing the patent, but the cost of defending it too. IBM could simply choose to ignore the patent because they know full well that the cost of taking patent action against them would ruin anyone except a mega-corporation. Even if the patent holder is right in law, IBM have the resources to string out the action until the patent holder goes bankrupt or is forced to capitulate on IBM's terms. The value of the patent to our hypothetical investor would have to be enormous to justify the expense of mounting an action against IBM for infringement. I cannot see anyone on the horizon who is going to take on that sort of liability. Regards, Roger Bowler Hercules "the people's mainframe" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --aO8uW5MDan8ro0GS1ZUdhJikezDXSGf0tGa4Uc7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Roger,<br> <br> It is true that the investor's ability to recoup would be limited to<br> commercial non-IBM use. They would not recoup anything from non-commercial<br> Hercules or from IBM, and the investor would take that into account in<br> valuing the investment. Your own venture TurboHercules is an example of<br> where an investor might recoup. If you were successful in commercializing<br> something that a Hercules developer invented and patented, even a modest<br> royalty would likely provide a decent return on the low 5-figure investment<br> to get the patent.<br> <br> It would not be up to the investor to mount an infringement lawsuit against<br> IBM. That would be up to Hercules. Although Hercules essentially has no<br> funds, if it had some truly valuable IP, there would likely be law firms<br> willing to take the case on contingency. And IBM knows that, and thus would<br> be motivated to settle, especially since Hercules would primarily be seeking<br> non-monetary consideration (as long as lawyers don't need to get involved in<br> a big way) such as immunity from IBM patents for non-commercial Hercules<br> use, hobbyist software licensing, etc.<br> <br> Let me repeat that I am not a lawyer and am not offering legal advice. I'm<br> just offering some limited pro-bono patent assistance. You need to get a<br> lawyer to look into the whole idea if you think it might be worth pursuing.<br> <br> Thanks,<br> <br> Ron Hilton<br> <br> _____ <br> <br> From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>] On Behalf Of Roger Bowler<br> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 7:16 AM<br> To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> Subject: [hercules-advocacy] Re: Pushing back the barriers and being<br> demolished by IBM<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> , Ron Hilton wrote:<br> ...<br> > 6. The developer/inventor has a year to decide whether to take<br> > the next step of filing an NPA, and raise money if necessary.<br> > <br> > If the developer is not rich and altruistic enough to personally<br> > pay for the NPA, they would need to find an investor during that<br> > one-year period of PPA pendency. Investors need to see a return on<br> > their investment. Although the developer has agreed to license the<br> > invention for non-commercial Hercules use and commercial IBM use,<br> > they would still retain the rights for commercial non-IBM use.<br> ...<br> <br> Ron, this all sounds ok except for two things:<br> <br> Firstly, what incentive would any investor have to pay for the patent to be<br> filed? As we have seen from recent cases, IBM have various means at their<br> disposal to enforce their monopoly in the mainframe space, making commercial<br> use of the patent by anyone other than IBM almost impossible in practical<br> terms. So it's difficult to see how such a patent would be of any value to<br> an investor, especially if a hypothetical "Hercules Inc" has already granted<br> IBM a license to use it.<br> <br> Secondly, there's not just the cost of filing the patent, but the cost of<br> defending it too. IBM could simply choose to ignore the patent because they<br> know full well that the cost of taking patent action against them would ruin<br> anyone except a mega-corporation. Even if the patent holder is right in law,<br> IBM have the resources to string out the action until the patent holder goes<br> bankrupt or is forced to capitulate on IBM's terms. The value of the patent<br> to our hypothetical investor would have to be enormous to justify the<br> expense of mounting an action against IBM for infringement. I cannot see<br> anyone on the horizon who is going to take on that sort of liability.<br> <br> Regards,<br> Roger Bowler<br> Hercules "the people's mainframe"<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Re%3A%20Pushing%20back%20the%20barriers%20and%20being%20demolished%20by%20IBM" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Re%3A%20Pushing%20back%20the%20barriers%20and%20being%20demolished%20by%20IBM"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvOWpsOWM5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk5NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzMjA2NzkyNjc-?act=reply&messageNum=997">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbHJlNTYzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyMDY3OTI2Nw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/985;_ylc=X3oDMTMyZXI5YmdxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzk5NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzMjA2NzkyNjcEdHBjSWQDOTg1">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">12</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaXQ0cG1lBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyMDY3OTI2Nw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ygrp-mkp" style="border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; clear: both; float: left; font-family: Arial; margin: 5px 0 10px 0; padding: 0 10px;"> <div id="hd" style="color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0;">MARKETPLACE</div> <div id="ads" style="margin-bottom: 10px;"> <div class="ad" style="color: #628C2A; font-family: Arial; font-weight: 700; padding: 0 0;"> <p><a href="http://global.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15onrjc2b/M=493064.14543979.14562481.13298430/D=groups/S=1705007709:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1320686468/L=1dd38c10-0954-11e1-a4b1-a3842f4bd3e4/B=e.5LDkoGYnc-/J=1320679268040920/K=ZIhgMVhIWu_.v96ufSHEiA/A=6060255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj">Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.</a></p> <script language=javascript> if(window.yzq_d==null)window.yzq_d=new Object(); window.yzq_d['e.5LDkoGYnc-']='&U=13cok05s4%2fN%3de.5LDkoGYnc-%2fC%3d493064.14543979.14562481.13298430%2fD%3dMKP1%2fB%3d6060255%2fV%3d1'; </script><noscript><img width=1 height=1 alt="" src="http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=1dd38c10-0954-11e1-a4b1-a3842f4bd3e4&T=1d1hvudae%2fX%3d1320679268%2fE%3d1705007709%2fR%3dgroups%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dH%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d3158094405%2fH%3dY29udGVudD0iWWFob29fVGVjaDtHbztNZXNzZW5nZXI7R3JvdXBzO01haWw7UG9kY2FzdHM7QnJpZWZjYXNlO1lhaG9vX1NlYXJjaF9NYXJrZXRpbmc7V2lkZ2V0cztGbGlja3I7IiBkaXNhYmxlc2h1ZmZsaW5nPSIxIiBzZXJ2ZUlkPSIxZGQzOGMxMC0wOTU0LTExZTEtYTRiMS1hMzg0MmY0YmQzZTQiIHNpdGVJZD0iNDQ1MjU1MSIgdFN0bXA9IjEzMjA2NzkyNjgwMTM1NzUiIA--%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3d9C238962&U=13cok05s4%2fN%3de.5LDkoGYnc-%2fC%3d493064.14543979.14562481.13298430%2fD%3dMKP1%2fB%3d6060255%2fV%3d1"></noscript><!--QYZ ,;;MKP1;1705007709;2;--> </div> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdTdodmQ5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzIwNjc5MjY3" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a> <div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy-traditional-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;"> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <div id="ygrp-reco"> </div> <!-- End Recommendations --> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4083586/grpspId=1705007709/msgId=997/stime=1320679267/nc1=5741398/nc2=3848583/nc3=3848642" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </body> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <head> <style type="text/css"> <!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; font-weight: 700; font-size: 78%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 0 0; } a { color: #1e66ae; } #actions { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; padding: 10px 0; } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; padding: 10px; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; padding: 10px 0; width: 400px; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { border: none; padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } blockquote { margin: 0 0 0 4px; } .bold { font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { width: 400px; } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } o { font-size: 0; } #photos div { float: left; width: 72px; } #photos div div { border: 1px solid #666666; height: 62px; overflow: hidden; width: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; font-size: 10px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; width: 64px; } #reco-category { font-size: 77%; } #reco-desc { font-size: 77%; } .replbq { margin: 4px; } #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/ margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } #ygrp-mlmsg { font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif; *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } #ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size: inherit; font: 100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height: 1.22em; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mlmsg a { color: #1E66AE; } #ygrp-msg p a { font-family: Verdana; } #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a { font-size: 130%; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li { font-size: 77%; list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 8px; } #ygrp-text { font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p { margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-text tt { font-size: 120%; } #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important; } --> </style> </head> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </html> <!-- end group email --> --aO8uW5MDan8ro0GS1ZUdhJikezDXSGf0tGa4Uc7--