RE: Innovation
"Rocky" <[email protected]> Thu, 31 May 2012 15:14:21 +0300
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.emulators.hercules390.advocacy |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--8nU6smLjKE4wbLJVrT0bFQv-ZyOqX5GnLzvLIBM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron What you are saying seems very straight forward. But where do we fit into that. Where does Hercules fit into that. How does that force IBM into recognizing Hercules as Legitmate platform for Z/os or any other propriitory product of theirs. IBM covers the whole market. They make ,maket and sell hardware, firmware, and Software. It seems that we are trying to cut into their HARDWARE market with our firmware. That would have adverse effects on their software as well - Would probably make a mess of their pricing structure. I don;t see them helping the Hercules team to do that. Innovation is fine - The software developers can create new products or improve existing ones and IBM would probably be very happy to help us. Hardware innovation is also fine. Can our engineers improve their hardware? But just building a competing product does not seem to be the answer. Anti-Trust laws etc. might help but why? Why commercialize Hercules except for profit. And then who is going to profit? As to the current discussions about the Dynamic debugger and using an interface on the PC --- IBM already did that. IBM DEBUG has that ability. That again is not innovation but just copying an idea. Its a real breakthru for the older operating systems and a very nice piece of work. But not a market breakthru. Not sure where that leaves us. Developing products for older operating systems? not a real market. :-) Roc _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ron.hilton Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:13 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation It only takes one good patent, indeed just a single claim within that patent, which has the potential to block one's adversary, to gain a commanding advantage. Provisional patent applications can be filed at very little cost. Then the next step is to get sufficient investor funding during the 1-year pendency of the provisional to underwrite obtaining the actual patent. During the several-year pendency of the actual patent application, the goal would be to raise additional funds for possible litigation, and/or find a patent litigator willing to take the case on a contingency basis. All the while, negotiations could be opened with IBM to discuss licensing terms. But it all hinges on developing some technology that the mainframe market in general and IBM in particular wants and needs. _____ From: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Harold Grovesteen Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:57 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 17:42 +0200, Roger Bowler wrote: > > On 28/05/2012 16:27, Harold Grovesteen wrote: > > As an open source software project, just what would we be trying to > > protect and from whom? As near as I can tell, a patent related to > > Hercules by one or more of its developers appears to give some chest > > thumping rights (claims to innovation) in some quarters but that's > it. > > Harold, > > It's not so much about protecting invention but rather about achieving > a > result unobtainable by other means - specifically forcing IBM to > recognize > Hercules as a legitimate platform for running z/OS. > > Ron is suggesting that the patent system could be used to gain some > bargaining power which could succeed where the anti-trust route > failed. I get what Ron is saying, but I fail to see the logic. > > Unfortunately however the system is skewed in favor of the party with > the > deepest pockets. > > Regards, > Roger Bowler > Hercules "the people's mainframe" > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --8nU6smLjKE4wbLJVrT0bFQv-ZyOqX5GnLzvLIBM Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Ron <br> <br> What you are saying seems very straight forward.<br> But where do we fit into that. Where does Hercules fit into that.<br> How does that force IBM into recognizing Hercules as Legitmate platform for<br> Z/os or any other propriitory product of theirs.<br> <br> IBM covers the whole market. They make ,maket and sell hardware, firmware,<br> and Software.<br> <br> It seems that we are trying to cut into their HARDWARE market with our<br> firmware.<br> That would have adverse effects on their software as well - Would probably<br> make a mess of their pricing structure.<br> I don;t see them helping the Hercules team to do that.<br> <br> Innovation is fine - The software developers can create new products or<br> improve existing ones and IBM would probably be very happy to help us.<br> <br> Hardware innovation is also fine. Can our engineers improve their hardware?<br> <br> But just building a competing product does not seem to be the answer.<br> <br> Anti-Trust laws etc. might help but why? <br> Why commercialize Hercules except for profit.<br> And then who is going to profit?<br> <br> As to the current discussions about the Dynamic debugger and using an<br> interface on the PC --- IBM already did that.<br> IBM DEBUG has that ability. <br> <br> That again is not innovation but just copying an idea. <br> Its a real breakthru for the older operating systems and a very nice piece<br> of work.<br> But not a market breakthru.<br> <br> Not sure where that leaves us. <br> Developing products for older operating systems? not a real market.<br> <br> :-)<br> <br> Roc<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> _____ <br> <br> From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a>] On Behalf Of ron.hilton<br> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:13 AM<br> To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> Subject: RE: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br> <br> It only takes one good patent, indeed just a single claim within that<br> patent, which has the potential to block one's adversary, to gain a<br> commanding advantage. Provisional patent applications can be filed at very<br> little cost. Then the next step is to get sufficient investor funding during<br> the 1-year pendency of the provisional to underwrite obtaining the actual<br> patent. During the several-year pendency of the actual patent application,<br> the goal would be to raise additional funds for possible litigation, and/or<br> find a patent litigator willing to take the case on a contingency basis. All<br> the while, negotiations could be opened with IBM to discuss licensing terms.<br> But it all hinges on developing some technology that the mainframe market in<br> general and IBM in particular wants and needs.<br> <br> _____ <br> <br> From: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Harold<br> Grovesteen<br> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:57 AM<br> To: <a href="mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com">[email protected]</a><br> <mailto:hercules-advocacy%40yahoogroups.com> <br> Subject: Re: [hercules-advocacy] Innovation<br> <br> On Mon, 2012-05-28 at 17:42 +0200, Roger Bowler wrote:<br> > <br> > On 28/05/2012 16:27, Harold Grovesteen wrote:<br> > > As an open source software project, just what would we be trying to<br> > > protect and from whom? As near as I can tell, a patent related to<br> > > Hercules by one or more of its developers appears to give some chest<br> > > thumping rights (claims to innovation) in some quarters but that's<br> > it.<br> > <br> > Harold,<br> > <br> > It's not so much about protecting invention but rather about achieving<br> > a <br> > result unobtainable by other means - specifically forcing IBM to<br> > recognize <br> > Hercules as a legitimate platform for running z/OS.<br> > <br> > Ron is suggesting that the patent system could be used to gain some <br> > bargaining power which could succeed where the anti-trust route<br> > failed.<br> <br> I get what Ron is saying, but I fail to see the logic.<br> > <br> > Unfortunately however the system is skewed in favor of the party with<br> > the <br> > deepest pockets.<br> > <br> > Regards,<br> > Roger Bowler<br> > Hercules "the people's mainframe"<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Innovation" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bhercules-advocacy%5D%20Innovation"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwc2g2MW9hBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzEwMjcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzM4NDY2NTM1?act=reply&messageNum=1027">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZnF2a3RwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMzODQ2NjUzNQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy/message/1009;_ylc=X3oDMTM0NW9sbTlkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BG1zZ0lkAzEwMjcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMzM4NDY2NTM1BHRwY0lkAzEwMDk-">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">19</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-advocacy;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGJkMHUzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMzODQ2NjUzNQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkc21taGFxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQwODM1ODYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA3NzA5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzM4NDY2NTM1" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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