Re: GPL vs. sweatshops (was Re: Bias)

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Steve Langasek wrote:

> Do you have hard numbers to show that programmers who work on proprietary
> software are better compensated than those that work on Open Source
> software?  For that matter, do you have any evidence that Open Source
> programmers are *undercompensated* by any standard?

Well, considering many Open Source programmers donate their time for free, 
it stands to reason that ZERO is indeed undercompensation.  They may do it 
of their own free will, but it remains true that volunteers don't get paid 
what their efforts are worth.

> If not, then any difference in income levels can only be attributed to 
> market inequalities. I find it hard to seriously entertain the argument 
> that the GPL is bad because it eliminates market imbalances.  More 
> importantly, without real numbers, this is all nothing more than FUD.

Are you saying that the GPL does, or does not eliminate market imbalances?

Regardless, does it take hard numbers to recognize that danger might exist?

> I think this list has outlived its usefulness.  It was created for
> discussion of concrete licensing issues regarding Wine, not as a forum for
> people going through crises of GPL faith.  Since I haven't seen any
> relevant discussion here for a long time, I'm unsubscribing shortly.

I agree that the discussion has wandered a bit afield.  My participation 
began with an innocent query to try to understand Alexandre's motives in 
flatly refusing to trade patches.  I think I do understand it now, even if 
I'm not sure I'd make the same decision, personally.

Meanwhile, the discussion has exploded into a bunch of tangents which I've 
tried my best to tie together and keep up with responding to, but it's very 
tiring.  I've sent well over 50 messages to this list in the last 2 weeks, 
and it's burned far more of my time than I care to think about.  It became 
a general debate about GPL vs. BSD, Stallman's intentions and tactics, and 
other general open-source-related issues.  While interesting, it's all not 
only irrelevant, but unlikely to ever reach any resolution all parties can 
agree with -- opposing sides are too deeply entrenched in their positions.

I entered this discussion as a neutral observer.  I've become convinced 
since that Transgaming was treated rather poorly.  I began by echoing the 
allegations I've heard, while trying to distance myself from endorsing them 
in doing so, since they were points for the sake of the debate.  Now that 
I've learned more of the background of the situation, all the evidence I've 
seen suggests that Transgaming honestly tried to follow a recommended open 
source business model (the "Street Performer Protocol") and not only got 
burned by an unsuccessful business model, after going out on a limb for it, 
but also got unfairly attacked by the community.

Honestly, after the treatment I've seen, I'm surprised Transgaming is still 
reaching out to the Wine community and wanting to work together, even if 
not on an LGPL basis.  Many others would have stormed off in a huff by now 
and carried a grudge for many years afterwards.  Strangely, it's the Wine 
community that seems to have gotten huffy, and apparently that's entirely 
because Transgaming refused to give the community something for nothing, 
after making it clear early on that they were expecting community support 
in exchange for their contributions.

They never got the support, so they never made the contributions everyone 
was expecting -- and everyone kept demanding that Transgaming follow 
through with those contributions even though the community support clearly 
was not forthcoming.  How fair is this?

I'm growing very weary of this constant debate, and I'm no longer neutral 
on the Transgaming vs. Wine dispute.  I began with the assumption that the 
allegations of Transgaming's misconduct were likely true, but having seen 
more of the background information that was pointed out to me, and heard 
more of the debate on both sides, and seen their old business model from 
the web.archive.org site, I've become convinced that Transgaming probably 
did nothing wrong, except placing their faith and money into yet another 
unproven open-source business model.

Curiously, though several people suggested I should focus on contributing 
something to Wine instead of just "complaining" to this list, when I later 
suggested that I might be able to contribute with a little help to figure 
out what would be needed, NOBODY stepped up to help me.  So I guess I won't 
be able to contribute to the code after all...

I made an effort to reach out, and offer to contribute to the Wine code, 
and it went nowhere.  Is this really an inclusive community looking for 
help or just a clique of people who want to be rid of outsiders entirely?
(Don't worry, I'm wandering away soon.  This is too draining to continue 
for much longer...)

Deven