X compression techniques (was Re: VNC server based on kdrive using damage extension?)

> X compression techniques (was Re: VNC server based on kdrive using damage extension?)
> Mike A. Harris [email protected]
> Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:26:26 -0500 (EST)
> 
> 
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2004, Egbert Eich wrote:

[....]

>> > So while there are indeed things to be learned from NX, I don't 
>> > consider it to be a godsend to X developmental issues, while it 
>> > may indeed be fantastic for end users at this point.
>>
>>Well,
>>
>>a. How can you be so sure?
>>b. Does this justify your somewhat hostile reaction?
> 
> I'm not hostile towards NX itself, nor it's developers, and if it 
> has appeared that way to anyone,

It certainly did to me.

> then I hope my intentions are 
> clarified by this message.
> 

Thanks.

> However, on several occasions both in email and IRC I have had 
> non-developer end users come into develmental discussions asking 
> why we don't just use NX, and that irritates me, because we are 
> developers trying to improve X.  We don't improve X by just using 
> some other pre-existing software,

Maybe you are right here.

But it is my experience that a lot of developers don't look left
and right. They don't see stuff done by others which might be
very useful for their own projects. This is not only the case
with X.

NX is probably a source of great sedative medicine to all those
X friends who were very worried about "Oh, Citrix and ICA are
going to trounce X on the field of distributed desktop computing
in the Enterprise" and "Apples Cocoa/Aqua stuff is much more
attractive than our Xlib-based developments". We can now rest
assured that there *is* something out there (which has still
a further big development roadmap to go), that already *today*
is putting  X-based OSes (well, that would mainly be Linux) on
par in performance over the net with MS Windows. And combined
with other exciting new developments (like the ones which come
from the people around Keith Packard) there is no need to fear
an overwhelming stampede towards OS X either.

> however non-developer types 
> just don't seem to "get" what our goals are. 

Like the other way round: developer "types" often don't understand
what the users' needs are....

> Afterall, we could 
> just disable the TCP transport entirely in X and just use VNC, or 
> some other solution. 

I've seen no-one mentinioning any thing close to that.

> The fact we're not doing so indicates that 
> we all believe that there are other options available, and that 
> there are other paths we can take to work on a better solution in 
> X in the future.
> 

"in" X, or "for" X doesn't matter to me from a user's point of
view.

An X developer may be glad to see that NX solves a problem in
his best interest that he does no longer need to care about.
(Well, maybe we all should address the GNOME/KDE/otherDE and
the GTK/Qt/otherTK developers and try to show them how they
could avoid inducing too many roundtrips into their apps, if
they want to make sure that they run really well over distant
X connections...)

> NX seems like wonderful technology, and so if it could be
> relicensed to be compatible with the MIT license then it would be 
> something useable inside X potentially,

You are confusing me now. Your initial objection was

    "It's not all GPL."

implying that you would consider worth a look if it was.
Now you changed that. The objection now seems to be

    'but it is GPL!'     (# I've "invented" the quote.)

> and any of my voiced 
> opinions about it from an X11 developmental viewpoint more or 
> less become null and void.
> 

I don't see why NX-library based Applications couldn't stay
as they are: a separate layer of software which at on stroke
solves a lot of problems X suffers from, and gives X developers
the opportunity to concentrate on other core parts of their
work.

The license issue becomes a non-issue with that layered approach
also, IMH "non-developer type's" O....

> Apologies if I have seemed overly hostile in the discussion, as I 
> do often get a bit short with end users who try to fit into 
> developmental discussions without understanding things from a 
> developer viewpoint.
> 

:-)

BTW, I am in touch with a small group of developers from the KDE
and GNOME projects who are trying to create a Free implementation
of the server-side proxy of NX. (The clients would stay separate
and be hosted by the respective DE's.) We are also contemplating
the idea to host the joint server-side development on freedesktop.org,
to have it more easily accessible to all interested parties (like
LTSP, XFree86 etc.)

Cheers,
Kurt