Re: Sourceware mitigating and preventing the next xz-backdoor

Am Mittwoch, dem 03.04.2024 um 18:02 +0200 schrieb Michael Matz:
> Hello,
> 
> On Wed, 3 Apr 2024, Martin Uecker wrote:
> 
> > The backdoor was hidden in a complicated autoconf script...
> 
> Which itself had multiple layers and could just as well have been a 
> complicated cmake function.

Don't me wrong, cmake is no way better. Another problem was 
actually hidden in a cmake test in upstream git in plain
sight:

https://git.tukaani.org/?p=xz.git;a=commitdiff;h=f9cf4c05edd14dedfe63833f8ccbe41b55823b00;hp=af071ef7702debef4f1d324616a0137a5001c14c

> 
> > > (And, FWIW, testing for features isn't "complex".  And have you looked at 
> > > other build systems?  I have, and none of them are less complex, just 
> > > opaque in different ways from make+autotools).
> > 
> > I ask a very specific question: To what extend is testing 
> > for features instead of semantic versions and/or supported
> > standards still necessary?
> 
> I can't answer this with absolute certainty, but points to consider: the 
> semantic versions need to be maintained just as well, in some magic way.  

It would certainly need to be maintained just like now autoconf
configuration needs to be maintained.

> Because ultimately software depend on features of dependencies not on 
> arbitrary numbers given to them.  The numbers encode these features, in 
> the best case, when there are no errors.  So, no, version numbers are not 
> a replacement for feature tests, they are a proxy.  One that is manually 
> maintained, and hence prone to errors.

Tests are also prone to errors and - as the example above shows -
also very fragile and susceptible to manipulation.

> 
> Now, supported standards: which one? ;-)  Or more in earnest: while on 
> this mailing list here we could chose a certain set, POSIX, some 
> languages, Windows, MacOS (versions so-and-so).  What about other 
> software relying on other 3rdparty feature providers (libraries or system 
> services)?  Without standards?
> 
> So, without absolute certainty, but with a little bit of it: yes, feature 
> tests are required in general.  That doesn't mean that we could not 
> do away with quite some of them for (e.g.) GCC, those that hold true on 
> any platform we support.  But we can't get rid of the infrastructure for 
> that, and can't get rid of certain classes of tests.
> 
> > This seems like a problematic approach that may have been necessary 
> > decades ago, but it seems it may be time to move on.
> 
> I don't see that.  Many aspects of systems remain non-standardized.

This is just part of the problem.

Martin

> 
> 
> Ciao,
> Michael.