Re: Make terminal window optional?

Hi Vaclav,

Thanks for the detailed response. I would still have a preference for 
option 2, it being relative ease to implement, and providing both a 
startup with and without command line.  But all options have their 
merits for sure.

Cheers,

Paulo

On 9-9-2020 05:32, Vaclav Petras wrote:
> Hi Paulo,
>
> I explained better options 3-5 and responded to the rest.
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 6:03 AM Paulo van Breugel 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
>
>     On 06-09-2020 05:05, Vaclav Petras wrote:
>>     When you start GRASS GIS now, it always also starts with a system
>>     terminal window which has a shell which has modified prompt and
>>     history. What I'm proposing is to make this opt-in, i.e., a user
>>     will have to take an action in order to get this terminal.
>>
>>     If there is no terminal by default, only users who actually want
>>     that will get it which means that the users who don't ask for it
>>     don't have to wonder what that is or what is the relation between
>>     terminal and GUI. This may clarify some of the first-time user
>>     confusion such as "once i open the grass gis console...it opens
>>     another application called layer manager" [1]. For those who
>>     don't use the terminal, this would also simplify all the exit and
>>     switch mapset situations such as "Close GUI" versus "Quit GRASS
>>     GIS". Users starting GRASS GIS from a terminal won't be affected
>>     by it. Users who want to use GRASS GIS from terminal could just
>>     start GRASS GIS from terminal.
>     On my Windows computer, I have installed GRASS using OSGeo4W.
>     OSGeo4W comes with a shell from which I can start grass. Is that
>     true for the stand alone installer as well?
>
>
>
> I hope others will comment on the current state and possibilities on 
> Windows and macOS.
>
>>     1. Have terminal started when GRASS GIS is started from a desktop
>>     launcher such as the Start menu on Windows. This is the current
>>     behavior in 7.8 plus the fix of requiring a terminal if it is not
>>     present, i.e. in cases such as the Atl+F2 on Linux, you will get
>>     GRASS GIS without a terminal.
>>
>>     2. Remove the terminal from desktop launchers so that GRASS GIS
>>     starts without the terminal when started in the GUI way. When a
>>     user starts GRASS GIS using a command from an existing terminal,
>>     there is no change from the current behavior: a (sub-)shell is
>>     started and possibly GUI launches.
>
>
>     This would be my (strong) preference, serves both experienced
>     users who like to work from the terminal and novices well. The
>     fact that it doesn't take much work is a bonus
>
>
> I like this one too. It is quite doable and it seems natural. You 
> start from the "system GUI", you get a standard GUI application. You 
> start from the terminal, you get both as you are getting now (and can 
> disable the GUI if you want to with --text).
>
>>
>>     3. The same as option 2 (no terminal from desktop launchers,
>>     shell from terminal), but only when the GUI will allow to start a
>>     terminal application using a menu entry.
>
>
>     Not sure I understand this option - you mean to say that one can
>     only start the terminal from the GUI? If so, I don't see the
>     advantage of this option.
>
>
> Well, that would be an option. It would then behave like RStudio or VS 
> Code (see, e.g., Steven Pawley's email) which you could count as an 
> advantage.
>
> What I meant was everything in option 2, but going with it only in 
> case the menu entry in GRASS GIS is also available.
>
>>
>>     4. Make the shell start only in the text mode (grass --text) or
>>     with a new additional option (--shell), i.e., you get it, only
>>     when you actually ask for it. In other words, with --text, GRASS
>>     GIS would behave more like R or Octave, without that (with
>>     --gui), it would behave more like QGIS or any other GUI
>>     application. (This includes the no terminal from desktop
>>     launchers from option 2.)
>
>
>     I am not sure I fully understand this option, but if it means one
>     has to choose, terminal _or_ GUI, I would be very much against
>     this option. I very often use both (and often enough in
>     combination with R starting from the command line). I know I could
>     use the console, but I don't find that near as convenient as
>     working from the terminal. And what would be the added value of
>     this option?
>
>
> You would not have to choose one or another as you can start GUI from 
> the terminal with g.gui. The Console in GUI cannot run an interactive 
> program like R, so that would not suffice, but starting a shell only 
> is perfectly good for starting GUI, R, or both afterwards.
>
> It also does not mean you cannot ask for both. Closest to the current 
> implementation is --text starts only shell while --gui starts only 
> GUI, but you could also allow combining these two to start both or 
> have additional --shell which starts the (sub-)shell even when --gui 
> was provided.
>
> The nice thing about this option is that it doesn't do anything 
> unexpected. It is not trying to guess that the user may want to use 
> the terminal. It starts GUI with one option combo (and by default) and 
> a (sub-)shell with another (or possibly both with yet another combo). 
> From a slightly different point of view, it puts the two behaviors 
> into two categories, with --text GRASS GIS is a command line 
> application like R or Octave, with --gui, it is a GUI application like 
> QGIS or RStudio with not much happening in the terminal.
>
> If (additionally) combining --text and --gui is not allowed, it 
> removes all problems of syncing between GUI and the shell which needs 
> to be partially implemented in the shell and that is different for 
> each shell. See e.g. the PR and commits below, but there is more.
>
> Update mapset and simplify shell prompts
> https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/923 
> <https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/923>
>
> Change the history file according to the current mapset for Bash
> https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/930 
> <https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/930>
>
> Close wxGUI on GRASS CLI exit
> https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/commit/98e289afa94da6f9aa93953774e4169e9f42f69e 
> <https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/commit/98e289afa94da6f9aa93953774e4169e9f42f69e>
>
>>
>>     5. The same as option 4 (shell only with --text or --shell), but
>>     only when the GUI will allow to start a terminal application
>>     using a menu entry as in option 3.
>
>
>     Idem to above
>
>
> All from option 4, but combining --text and --gui is for sure allowed 
> and we would follow with this only when starting terminal from GUI is 
> possible (like in option 3).
>
> Vaclav

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