Re: [Support] Gnome 3.14 hits Arch linux repos, also on Manjaro unstable repos.

Hello,
I apologize we have most likelly missunderstood each other.
We both mean the same thing and still we are saying that we don't agree.
The fact accessibility support is moving forward on the gnome desktop is 
a sure thing and none of us is about to change or supress that.
It is possible Mate developers did something in order to improve mate 
desktop accessibility but when compared to the efforts of gnome 
developers the amount of work being done is minimal.

Thanks and greetings

Peter

On 21.10.2014 at 12:15 Hadi Rezaee wrote:
> Hello Peter
> First, I don't think that improvements in Mate's accessibility is 
> "pure coincidence".
> It's like that when gnome 3 released with a total re-hall, it was not 
> very accessible, but as  it released new versions, It just became 
> better and better!
> that's not pure coincidence, That's when  our community actually pays 
> attention to that cirtain Desktop and as you mentioned, file bugs, 
> send feedback and  more, Developers also care, and the Desktop will 
> improve in terms of accessibility.
>
> So For example, When suddenly a lot of expert users just move into 
> Mate and do not care for gnome anymore, Improvements in accessibility 
> also slows down.
>
> I'll start filing bugs to gnome After  i've completed my project which 
> i'm working on right now.  shouldn't take one or two weaks.
>
> But yeah, Gnome is on latest technology. It already has finger 
> jestures, you can for example drag two fingers down in the screen 
> anywhere, and a cirtain events happen! It could remain accessible as 
> it also becomes more advanced, as long as users provide feedback. else 
> accessibility will decrease as gnome versions go upward.
>
> Cheers
> Hadi
>
> On 10/21/2014 12:44 PM, Peter Vágner wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I am afraid why the mate is becoming mostly accessible is just a pure 
>> coincidence and it has a lot to do with the fact it's originally 
>> based off of gnome 2.
>> All accessibility development has been happening at gnome throughout 
>> the years. I don't think this is about to change anytime soon.
>> I am calling these guys and girls accessibility heroes for my-self.
>> What I think is they need a little more help from us visually 
>> disabled community users.
>> We do already have some power users here such as me, Kyle, José, 
>> Attila, Dave Hunt, Kendel Clark, Burd Henry, Alex Midence and some 
>> others who might verry likelly be able to help with this to some 
>> degree. Perhaps there are more people and I apologise if I have 
>> forgotten to mention someone who might be qualified enough.
>>
>> Of course the keypoint is we should start reporting bugs more 
>> activelly with more concrete steps to reproduce for other packages 
>> not limiting our-selves to orca. As we will notice other gnome 
>> developers addressing our issues we can learn from them by studying 
>> concrete code examples.
>> Additionally here are companies such as Rethat and Igalia. I don't 
>> think we are likelly to receive possible help from other companies 
>> not mentioning F123 and other not for profit organizations at this 
>> point. However if you specifically need bughunters please try to 
>> motivate people a bit. The fact we should be able to receive better 
>> accessible enviromment in april is enough to get us try to do 
>> something that may hopefully be helpfull.
>> If there is a way to guide us a bit we would likelly be able to help 
>> more than just writing such theories like the one I am now 
>> speculating about.
>> Along with other discussion message I have sent today it took me more 
>> than a hour. If I add tryal and error with what I am describing it 
>> took me several more hours. If instead I was able to fix several 
>> accessibility related issues rather than speculating here trying to 
>> make someone notice it I am really interested maybe the outcome would 
>> be even a bit better.
>>
>> So we currently have a first task to do guys until someone will bring 
>> a better idea. Let's find the most anoying issue you can recognize on 
>> the gnome bugtracker and try to think if someone of us has an idea on 
>> how to fix it. If we will be there we can add other issues we can 
>> identify and are not already tracked.
>>
>> What do you guys think? Is someone happy about trying doing a bit to 
>> try to improve this situation a little?
>>
>> Greetings
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18.10.2014 at 05:24 Benjamin Moser wrote:
>>> W,
>>>
>>> Maybe in the future we will get better accessibility out of the Mate 
>>> project than we are getting from the Gnome folks.
>>>
>>> Man oh man! I hope SOMEBODY will keep things going in a positive 
>>> direction.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/17/2014 04:52 AM, Hadi Rezaee wrote:
>>>> hi Peter
>>>> You brought of lots of great points. I totally agree with you about 
>>>> the speed. gnome 3.14 has a boost on speed!
>>>> But i also agree with all the rest of your points. apparently, 
>>>> nearly all gnome apps are not accessible or have broken keyboard 
>>>> navigation otherwise.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/16/2014 10:51 PM, Peter Vágner wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I have just updated my arch linux to gnome 3.14.
>>>>> I see it's slightly better in performance than earlier versions. 
>>>>> It can for example be immediatelly seen when using nautilus to 
>>>>> browse large directory trees e.g. my directory containing 365 
>>>>> subdirectories where each subdirectory is containing from 3 to 180 
>>>>> files.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunatelly there are some things which I am worried of:
>>>>> - Buttons on the GDM login screen are missing accessible 
>>>>> descriptions. This is an old issue reported after gnome 3.12 has 
>>>>> been released.
>>>>> - New improved gnome-contacts are extremelly innefficient to 
>>>>> navigate with keyboard and I am afraid in terms of accessibility 
>>>>> verry little has improved.
>>>>> - List in the gnome-documents is missing many important info in 
>>>>> the accessible name. Popup menus can't be activated via keyboard. 
>>>>> It is similar in layout to gnome contacts and is less usefull.
>>>>> - Google docs should be now supported through online accounts 
>>>>> however I haven't found a way on how to share a file through 
>>>>> google docs.
>>>>> - I haven't looked into gnome music, gnome maps, gitg, polari and 
>>>>> maybe some other new and rewamped apps however I am afraid 
>>>>> accessibility guidelines are not being taken into account while 
>>>>> developing these new modern gnome 3 apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> We visually disabled people would love to also benefit from these 
>>>>> the same way sighted people do. In gnome 3.12 a lot of new GTK 
>>>>> widgets were invented with accessibility support and I feel gnome 
>>>>> 3.14 is not continuing in this trend.
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot of these modern apps are coded using vala. Is there a chance 
>>>>> we might try to promote gnome accessibility support inside vala 
>>>>> community?
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16.10.2014 at 18:35 Jonathan Nadeau wrote:
>>>>>> Awesome! Looking forward to the upgrade.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 16/10/14 12:18, Hadi Rezaee wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi guys
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arch extra repos are now updated their gnome to  3.14.
>>>>>>> Manjaro unstable repos are also loaded with the latest gnome 
>>>>>>> release.
>>>>>>> Expect gnome on Manjaro stable in two weaks
>>>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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