Re: A less invasive rcs
Hugh Sasse <[email protected]> Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:09:14 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.gnu.rcs |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <AM6PR0302MB31896E225B36E315C1C14F5BE6889@AM6PR0302MB3189.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> |
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I've never worked with Perforce and have heard good and bad things about th=
e commercial offerings. Wiping the disk rather than just adding what =
needs to be added seems rather drastic!</div>
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I don't, even now, fully understand what git does with nested repositories,=
not being too keen to repeat the experience. To borrow your ASCII ar=
t, I'm thinking about this: </div>
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<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
.../project
<div> =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 src</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 foo.c</di=
v>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 bar.c</di=
v>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 /nested</=
div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 src</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=A6 =
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 baz.c</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=A6 =
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 qux.c</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 inc</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=A6 =
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 baz.h</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=A6 =
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 qux.h</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 doc</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=A6 =
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 baz.md</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 .rcs</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 src</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 baz.c,v</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 qux.c,v</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 inc</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 baz.h,v</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 qux.h,v</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 doc</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 baz.md,v</div>
<div> =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 inc</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 foo.h</di=
v>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 bar.h</di=
v>
<div> =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 doc</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 foo.md</d=
iv>
<div> =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 .rcs</div>
<div> =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 src</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 foo.c,v</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 bar.c,v</div>
<div> =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 inc</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 foo.h,v</div>
<div> =A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 bar.h,v</div>
<div> =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 doc</div>
<div> =A9=B8=A9=A4=
=A9=A4 foo.md,v</div>
<div><br>
</div>
When you try to rcs commit .../project, and it hits the newly created src/n=
ested/, then, I think it should, or maybe RFC style: MUST, backup the conta=
ined RCS directories, because it is not playing the role of looking of RCS =
data at this point, it is looking
for files to squirrel away. Git would, I think, just stop, and=
ignore them, or bark at the user.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
This would probably result in things like qux.c,v,v in the RCS folder, but =
I think that could be lived with.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
However, this is only my expectation, at the moment. I don't know if =
I am right. There may be a better way that makes more sense, and once=
I see it, I will think, "Oh, of course, that is obvious!!"</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Working inside nested/ should work as you suggest. (It is the same st=
ructure; I just changed the names.)</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Does this show you what I'm talking about? </div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Thank you,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Hugh</div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> John Yates <john@y=
ates-sheets.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 February 2021 11:19<br>
<b>To:</b> Hugh Sasse <[email protected]><br>
<b>Cc:</b> [email protected] <[email protected]><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: A less invasive rcs</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"><font color=3D"#000000">
<pre>This message was sent from outside of DMU. Please do not click links o=
r open attachments unless you recognise the source of this email and know t=
he content is safe.</pre>
</font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">Hi Hugh,</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">I can empathize with your memory of a bad experience. </div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">My motivation for this project is a bad experience with git</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">in which unsaved (not yet added) files got lost via a hard</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">reset. As an emacs user I want a mechanism that will</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">preserve my changes on every save. Furthermore, I want</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">those changes saved outside of my project tree. (At work</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">that project tree gets wiped out and recreated by our crazy</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">Perforce integration.)</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">A related project is to add a vc-timemachine capability,</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">modeled on git-timemachine. This is why I want my</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">changes saved in rcs instead of as a collection of date-</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">time suffixed files (<i>=A8=A2 la</i> today's backup-each-save.el=
).</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">I would like to better understand your suggestion for how</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">to handle nested trees. Over the years git has had many</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">runs at the problem of nested projects and all have been</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">quite complex. My hope is that rcs's file-centric simplicit=
y</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">will save us.</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif">/john</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 5:55 AM Hug=
h Sasse <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<b=
r>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
I like the simplicity and clarity of RCS in comparison with git. (The=
other features of git are often appropriate.) I see the benefits of =
having a separate tree and note the idea of having a top marker. Howe=
ver, I had a horrible experience when I created
a git repository which I hadn't remembered was in a directory already in o=
ne. When I went to the top, the enclosing git functionality just fail=
ed on me, and I can't remember the failure message now (it's about ten year=
s). I thought I was going to lose my
research. This was too close to a deadline to be fun.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
I think the design of the interface for when things get nested, even accide=
ntally, will need to be thought through very carefully. My expe=
ctations of "It should just work" were that the current state of =
the enclosed repository should be saved when the outer
one was saved. [I had added all.] After all, it is just a coll=
ection of files within the structure that happen to contain a .git director=
y, etc. </div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
There may be a whole load of expectations from people, all very different, =
but my feeling was "A version control system may not injure a user's f=
iles, or, through inaction, allow them to come to harm" :-)! It =
took me too long to work out what had happened,
and didn't do me much good, never mind my files! The computer has ac=
cess to all this information, so it should be able to remind the overburden=
ed user that there is an enclosed repository, not the other way round.</div=
>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
I suspect the "Human Factors" of this may be more difficult than =
I imagine.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Thank you,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Hugh</div>
<div id=3D"x_gmail-m_-4825369188004097900appendonsend"></div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_gmail-m_-4825369188004097900divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font f=
ace=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>F=
rom:</b> help-rcs <help-rcs-bounces+hgs=3D<a href=3D"mailto:dmu.ac.uk@gn=
u.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> on
behalf of John Yates <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 February 2021 02:38<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">help-rcs@g=
nu.org</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">help-r=
[email protected]</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> A less invasive rcs</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"><font color=3D"#000000">
<pre>This message was sent from outside of DMU. Please do not click links o=
r open attachments unless you recognise the source of this email and know t=
he content is safe.</pre>
</font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I am brainstorming so=
me extensions to rcs that would</div>
<div>
<ul style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<li>Avoid both ,v files and RCS directories in working trees</li><li>Allow =
the ,v files to be stored in a fully separate tree</li></ul>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Today, we have two pl=
aces for a working file's ,v file:</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<ul>
<li>In the working file's working directory</li><li>In an RCS subdirectory =
added to that working directory</li></ul>
<div>I propose a third location, a mirror of that working directo=
ry<br>
located by searching upward, through parent directories, for<br>
a "dominating" .rcs directory. If such a directory is found=
, it<br>
contains a parallel directory structure:</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div><font face=3D"monospace"> .../project<br>
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 src<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 foo.c<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 bar.c<br>
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 inc<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 foo.h<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 bar.h<br>
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 doc<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 foo.md<br>
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 .rcs<br>
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 src<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 =
foo.c,v<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 =
bar.c,v<br>
=A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 inc<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=C0=A9=A4=A9=A4 =
foo.h,v<br>
=A9=A6 =A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 =
bar.h,v<br>
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 doc<br>
=A9=B8=A9=A4=A9=A4 =
foo.md,v<br>
</font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">How to search for a ,=
v file:</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<ul>
<li>Look in working file's directory</li><li>If the working directory conta=
ins an RCS sub-directory,<br>
then look there</li><li>If a "dominating" .rcs directory exists, =
look in the<br>
corresponding directory</li></ul>
<div>Where to create a new ,v file:</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>If a "dominating" .rcs directory exists, ensure existence<br>
of a corresponding directory and create it there</li><li>If a RCS sub-direc=
tory exists, create it there</li><li>Create it in the working file's workin=
g directory</li></ul>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<div>
<div>To provide a means of stopping the upward search for a .rcs<br>
marker I propose a very simple .rcsstop marker.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">At this point I take =
some inspiration from git for a separate</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">directory convention.=
This means allowing the "dominating"</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.rcs marker to be a f=
ile, similar to .git. If it is a file then it is</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">a "file system a=
gnostic" symbolic link to an out of tree .rcs</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">directory. The =
contents of this file is</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> rcsdir:=
<path></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Does this seem too cr=
azy? Any implementation suggestions?</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Where is the relevant=
search logic implemented in the rcs</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">source?</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">/john</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>John Yates<br>
</div>
<div>505 Tremont St, #803</div>
<div>Boston, MA 02116</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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