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On Jan 12, 2016 1:05 AM, "David Brown [email protected] [msp430]" <
[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> For doing a new msp430 project (I rarely use them now), there would be
> no doubt in my mind as to the tools. It would be TI's eclipse IDE,
> combined with the new gcc port that is fully supported by TI and Red
> Hat. I can't imagine why someone would want to work on an assembly-only
> project these days, except perhaps for fun. gcc will generate better
> code than most assembler programmers in many circumstances - assuming
> the code has to be written in a clear, understandable, safe,
> maintainable manner. There can be occasions when a particular small
> snippet is best written in assembly - the inline assembler is usually
> the best answer, but of course it is possible to write external assembly
> functions if you really must.
Mythical Man Month addressed this 40 years ago.
>
> David
>
>
> On 12/01/16 03:24, 'Peter Grey' [email protected] [msp430] wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Jon, Al
> >
> > I may be a little off topic here. Like yourselves I have used IAR and
> > assembler for many years. I like the thought of using both assembler
and C
> > so I can use existing software and also use some of the advantages of
C. I
> > started to have a look at CCS6 as I thought I would have to buy a copy
of
> > IAR for the use of C. I only see one document on the TI website that
refers
> > to mixing C and assembler and it is quite old. Do you have any
references to
> > any other documentation on mixing the 2 and using IAR?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 12 January 2016 5:29 AM
> > To: MSP430 List
> > Subject: Re: [msp430] Asm source code page?
> >
> > On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 19:33:47 +1030, Al wrote:
> >
> >>I Totally agree with Jon.
> >
> > :)
> >
> >>IAR's assembler is excellent, does everything I want, is unlimited, is
> >>free, and since I don't use any libraries from third parties there are
> >>no royalty issues.
> >
> > That assembler and linker tool-pair is good. I've used a LOT of
assemblers
> > in my life and have written a few, as well.
> > This one from IAR is about as good as assemblers for micros usually
get. The
> > abstract segmentation model is great. The macro facility could be
better,
> > but I consider it "good enough for most things." (I can also use M4 or
some
> > other tool on the source where I feel there are some limitations.
> > Such tools won't be fluent with the semantics but they may be fruitfull=
y
> > used. I just haven't felt enough of a need yet, since IAR's
capabilities are
> > good enough for now.)
> >
> >>The IDE is straightforward, and quite good.
> >
> > It's remarkably easy to get started using and remains very capable as
you
> > advance further over time. It just wears well over time. They've done a
very
> > good job on its design. And, fortunately for some of us, have decided t=
o
> > offer a fully functional toolset for assembler programmers at no charge=
.
> > I'm in debt to them for this fact.
> >
> > (I'm also in debt for another reason -- I've never needed more than an
> > additional 4k of C generated code for an MSP430 project, so the
KickStart
> > has been "good enough" for all my project uses so far.)
> >
> >>It used to do some strange things, but they seem to have been cleaned
> >>up over the years, either that or I subconsciously avoid them!
> >
> > I haven't found anything that was "strange." I have found things that
took a
> > moment to consider before I fully understood them. But once I gathered
up
> > the conceptual model they made good sense to me.
> >
> > The only "strange" things are things I've done myself with their
toolset.
> > For example, I needed a way to find the largest common divisor for a
pair of
> > configuration parameters to help me set up a clocking system that would
> > serve two purposes at once with only integer multiplier differences in
their
> > operation. I hacked up a MACRO tool to do exactly that, too. Worked
> > perfectly. Now, someone looking at it would see "strange" there, I
suppose.
> > But that's my fault, not IARs!
> >
> >>I find the syntax is more in line with the vast majority of assemblers
> >>I've used over the last too many years, no strange things.
> >
> > That's pretty much my feeling, too.
> >
> >>Their header files for each processor are also quite good, but large
> >>because they are general use for C, c++ and assembler, so I personally
> >>always clean out all the stuff I am unlikely to use, add some stuff
> >>that I personally like to use, and rename the file, so I have an
> >>original version incase I ever decide to mix assembly and C for example=
.
> >
> > Hmm. So far, I've not bothered with that. In part, perhaps, because I
> > haven't done as much as you have and haven't reached a situation where
the
> > trouble would have been worth it. In part, perhaps, because I tend not
to
> > change standard facilities unless I can clearly justify the change. I'd
> > rather use an additional file I create and add it to the inclusion
list. But
> > again, you probably have a wider array of usages than I do and I may
very
> > well have made similar choices if I had faced similar situations, too.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >>Cheers
> >>
> >>Al
> >>
> >>On 11/01/2016 6:15 AM, Jon Kirwan [email protected] [msp430]
wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 22:47:23 -0800, Craig Carmichael wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ... ideas for web pages of sample code in Asm?
> >>> Just as an additional note...
> >>>
> >>> If you are interested in writing assembly-only projects for the
> >>> MSP430 and MSP430X families, I'd recommend using IAR's Kickstart
> >>> tools. Their assembler is quite general-purpose and does NOT have any
> >>> code size limitations at all. See:
> >>>
> >>> http://supp.iar.com/FilesPublic/UPDINFO/004578/infocenter/product_pac
> >>> kages.html
> >>>
> >>> where the 2nd bullet under the Kickstart heading says, "The IAR
> >>> Assembler delivered is the full version without any restrictions" and
> >>> the 3rd bullet expands, "The IAR XLINK Linker will link ... an
> >>> unlimited amount of code originating from assembly code." (The 4th
> >>> bullet adds, "The IAR KickStart C-SPY Simulator ... is unlimited in
> >>> the amount of assembly code read.") This pretty much means you get an
> >>> excellent assembler/linker toolset, plus a very nice IDE and debugger
> >>> for coding purposes and ZERO cost to you. I've used IAR for assembly
> >>> coding development and I really like the tools a lot, as they present
> >>> a very clean, orthogonal design with all the features you need. Other
> >>> assembler tools I've used, off and on, tend to have odd "limitations"
> >>> which are frustrating at times. IAR's tools "just work well." Never
> >>> wished for a feature that I couldn't already find in IAR's assembler
> >>> + linker toolset.
> >>>
> >>> You can also explore C/C++ with IAR's tools, but the free Kickstart
> >>> version does limit your final application size.
> >>> IAR asks a "fairly high price" for unlimited C/C++ code sizes. If you
> >>> do plan on mixing C and assembly and plan on developing larger
> >>> applications then you should consider other tools for a cost/benefit
> >>> analysis. A starting point might be TI's page here:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontrollers_16-bit_32-bit/msp/tools_so
> >>> ftware.page
> >>>
> >>> However, be aware that this page in no way provides all your options.
> >>> Rowley and ImageCraft are just two such examples that you don't see
> >>> there:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.rowley.co.uk/msp430/
> >>> https://www.imagecraft.com/devtools_MSP430.html
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure there are others, as well, that aren't included in the TI
> >>> page.
> >>>
> >>> If you are doing this all as a hobby, then you are free to make your
> >>> own choices about assembly-only or mixed coding styles. Whatever
> >>> makes you happy works just fine.
> >>>
> >>> If you have your own product/product-line in mind, then you need to
> >>> be aware of licensing issues (libraries used, as well as compiler
> >>> generated output) for the tools you apply. I believe you can use the
> >>> IAR assembler/linker toolchain for commercial products without paying
> >>> them a fee, so long as you are careful about library use (not using
> >>> any library other than public domain would be safer.) It sounds like
> >>> you might be in this frame of mind, but it is hard to tell.
> >>>
> >>> For professional contract work, you will want to be able to support
> >>> mixed assembly and C/C++. Clients deserve to have the widest range of
> >>> options available for their project development so that the overall
> >>> development process can be optimized for them, weighing all
> >>> conditions appropriate to their circumstances. You should then
> >>> carefully study the various commercial options. But you should ALSO
> >>> contact the vendors, too, and speak or write to a human there and get
> >>> a feel for what contact and support will be like after you buy their
> >>> tools. Most MSP430 vendors should be pretty good, I think. But it
> >>> helps to make contact and see how things play out before making a
> >>> final decision and spending your money.
> >>>
> >>> As an employee in an organization with more than one programmer,
> >>> which does NOT sound like your situation, you do what has been
> >>> established by careful consideration of your team members. If you are
> >>> a sole employee, then I suppose you get to make your own choices but
> >>> you need to make them well for those depending on you.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >
>
>=20
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<p dir="ltr"><br>
On Jan 12, 2016 1:05 AM, "David Brown <a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> [msp430]" <<a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>
></p>
<p dir="ltr">><br>
> For doing a new msp430 project (I rarely use them now), there would be<br>
> no doubt in my mind as to the tools. It would be TI's eclipse IDE,<br>
> combined with the new gcc port that is fully supported by TI and Red<br>
> Hat. I can't imagine why someone would want to work on an assembly-only<br>
> project these days, except perhaps for fun. gcc will generate better<br>
> code than most assembler programmers in many circumstances - assuming<br>
> the code has to be written in a clear, understandable, safe,<br>
> maintainable manner. There can be occasions when a particular small<br>
> snippet is best written in assembly - the inline assembler is usually<br>
> the best answer, but of course it is possible to write external assembly<br>
> functions if you really must.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Mythical Man Month addressed this 40 years ago.</p>
<p dir="ltr">><br>
> David<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 12/01/16 03:24, 'Peter Grey' <a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> [msp430] wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Hi Jon, Al<br>
> > <br>
> > I may be a little off topic here. Like yourselves I have used IAR and<br>
> > assembler for many years. I like the thought of using both assembler and C<br>
> > so I can use existing software and also use some of the advantages of C. I<br>
> > started to have a look at CCS6 as I thought I would have to buy a copy of<br>
> > IAR for the use of C. I only see one document on the TI website that refers<br>
> > to mixing C and assembler and it is quite old. Do you have any references to<br>
> > any other documentation on mixing the 2 and using IAR?<br>
> > <br>
> > Thanks<br>
> > <br>
> > Peter<br>
> > <br>
> > -----Original Message-----<br>
> > From: <a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>]<br>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 12 January 2016 5:29 AM<br>
> > To: MSP430 List<br>
> > Subject: Re: [msp430] Asm source code page?<br>
> > <br>
> > On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 19:33:47 +1030, Al wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> >>I Totally agree with Jon.<br>
> > <br>
> > :)<br>
> > <br>
> >>IAR's assembler is excellent, does everything I want, is unlimited, is<br>
> >>free, and since I don't use any libraries from third parties there are<br>
> >>no royalty issues.<br>
> > <br>
> > That assembler and linker tool-pair is good. I've used a LOT of assemblers<br>
> > in my life and have written a few, as well.<br>
> > This one from IAR is about as good as assemblers for micros usually get. The<br>
> > abstract segmentation model is great. The macro facility could be better,<br>
> > but I consider it "good enough for most things." (I can also use M4 or some<br>
> > other tool on the source where I feel there are some limitations.<br>
> > Such tools won't be fluent with the semantics but they may be fruitfully<br>
> > used. I just haven't felt enough of a need yet, since IAR's capabilities are<br>
> > good enough for now.)<br>
> > <br>
> >>The IDE is straightforward, and quite good.<br>
> > <br>
> > It's remarkably easy to get started using and remains very capable as you<br>
> > advance further over time. It just wears well over time. They've done a very<br>
> > good job on its design. And, fortunately for some of us, have decided to<br>
> > offer a fully functional toolset for assembler programmers at no charge.<br>
> > I'm in debt to them for this fact.<br>
> > <br>
> > (I'm also in debt for another reason -- I've never needed more than an<br>
> > additional 4k of C generated code for an MSP430 project, so the KickStart<br>
> > has been "good enough" for all my project uses so far.)<br>
> > <br>
> >>It used to do some strange things, but they seem to have been cleaned<br>
> >>up over the years, either that or I subconsciously avoid them!<br>
> > <br>
> > I haven't found anything that was "strange." I have found things that took a<br>
> > moment to consider before I fully understood them. But once I gathered up<br>
> > the conceptual model they made good sense to me.<br>
> > <br>
> > The only "strange" things are things I've done myself with their toolset.<br>
> > For example, I needed a way to find the largest common divisor for a pair of<br>
> > configuration parameters to help me set up a clocking system that would<br>
> > serve two purposes at once with only integer multiplier differences in their<br>
> > operation. I hacked up a MACRO tool to do exactly that, too. Worked<br>
> > perfectly. Now, someone looking at it would see "strange" there, I suppose.<br>
> > But that's my fault, not IARs!<br>
> > <br>
> >>I find the syntax is more in line with the vast majority of assemblers<br>
> >>I've used over the last too many years, no strange things.<br>
> > <br>
> > That's pretty much my feeling, too.<br>
> > <br>
> >>Their header files for each processor are also quite good, but large<br>
> >>because they are general use for C, c++ and assembler, so I personally<br>
> >>always clean out all the stuff I am unlikely to use, add some stuff<br>
> >>that I personally like to use, and rename the file, so I have an<br>
> >>original version incase I ever decide to mix assembly and C for example.<br>
> > <br>
> > Hmm. So far, I've not bothered with that. In part, perhaps, because I<br>
> > haven't done as much as you have and haven't reached a situation where the<br>
> > trouble would have been worth it. In part, perhaps, because I tend not to<br>
> > change standard facilities unless I can clearly justify the change. I'd<br>
> > rather use an additional file I create and add it to the inclusion list. But<br>
> > again, you probably have a wider array of usages than I do and I may very<br>
> > well have made similar choices if I had faced similar situations, too.<br>
> > <br>
> > Jon<br>
> > <br>
> >>Cheers<br>
> >><br>
> >>Al<br>
> >><br>
> >>On 11/01/2016 6:15 AM, Jon Kirwan <a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> [msp430] wrote:<br>
> >>> On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 22:47:23 -0800, Craig Carmichael wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> ... ideas for web pages of sample code in Asm?<br>
> >>> Just as an additional note...<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> If you are interested in writing assembly-only projects for the<br>
> >>> MSP430 and MSP430X families, I'd recommend using IAR's Kickstart<br>
> >>> tools. Their assembler is quite general-purpose and does NOT have any<br>
> >>> code size limitations at all. See:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="http://supp.iar.com/FilesPublic/UPDINFO/004578/infocenter/product_pac">http://supp.iar.com/FilesPublic/UPDINFO/004578/infocenter/product_pac</a><br>
> >>> kages.html<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> where the 2nd bullet under the Kickstart heading says, "The IAR<br>
> >>> Assembler delivered is the full version without any restrictions" and<br>
> >>> the 3rd bullet expands, "The IAR XLINK Linker will link ... an<br>
> >>> unlimited amount of code originating from assembly code." (The 4th<br>
> >>> bullet adds, "The IAR KickStart C-SPY Simulator ... is unlimited in<br>
> >>> the amount of assembly code read.") This pretty much means you get an<br>
> >>> excellent assembler/linker toolset, plus a very nice IDE and debugger<br>
> >>> for coding purposes and ZERO cost to you. I've used IAR for assembly<br>
> >>> coding development and I really like the tools a lot, as they present<br>
> >>> a very clean, orthogonal design with all the features you need. Other<br>
> >>> assembler tools I've used, off and on, tend to have odd "limitations"<br>
> >>> which are frustrating at times. IAR's tools "just work well." Never<br>
> >>> wished for a feature that I couldn't already find in IAR's assembler<br>
> >>> + linker toolset.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> You can also explore C/C++ with IAR's tools, but the free Kickstart<br>
> >>> version does limit your final application size.<br>
> >>> IAR asks a "fairly high price" for unlimited C/C++ code sizes. If you<br>
> >>> do plan on mixing C and assembly and plan on developing larger<br>
> >>> applications then you should consider other tools for a cost/benefit<br>
> >>> analysis. A starting point might be TI's page here:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontrollers_16-bit_32-bit/msp/tools_so">http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontrollers_16-bit_32-bit/msp/tools_so</a><br>
> >>> ftware.page<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> However, be aware that this page in no way provides all your options.<br>
> >>> Rowley and ImageCraft are just two such examples that you don't see<br>
> >>> there:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> <a href="http://www.rowley.co.uk/msp430/">http://www.rowley.co.uk/msp430/</a><br>
> >>> <a href="https://www.imagecraft.com/devtools_MSP430.html">https://www.imagecraft.com/devtools_MSP430.html</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I'm sure there are others, as well, that aren't included in the TI<br>
> >>> page.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> If you are doing this all as a hobby, then you are free to make your<br>
> >>> own choices about assembly-only or mixed coding styles. Whatever<br>
> >>> makes you happy works just fine.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> If you have your own product/product-line in mind, then you need to<br>
> >>> be aware of licensing issues (libraries used, as well as compiler<br>
> >>> generated output) for the tools you apply. I believe you can use the<br>
> >>> IAR assembler/linker toolchain for commercial products without paying<br>
> >>> them a fee, so long as you are careful about library use (not using<br>
> >>> any library other than public domain would be safer.) It sounds like<br>
> >>> you might be in this frame of mind, but it is hard to tell.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> For professional contract work, you will want to be able to support<br>
> >>> mixed assembly and C/C++. Clients deserve to have the widest range of<br>
> >>> options available for their project development so that the overall<br>
> >>> development process can be optimized for them, weighing all<br>
> >>> conditions appropriate to their circumstances. You should then<br>
> >>> carefully study the various commercial options. But you should ALSO<br>
> >>> contact the vendors, too, and speak or write to a human there and get<br>
> >>> a feel for what contact and support will be like after you buy their<br>
> >>> tools. Most MSP430 vendors should be pretty good, I think. But it<br>
> >>> helps to make contact and see how things play out before making a<br>
> >>> final decision and spending your money.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> As an employee in an organization with more than one programmer,<br>
> >>> which does NOT sound like your situation, you do what has been<br>
> >>> established by careful consideration of your team members. If you are<br>
> >>> a sole employee, then I suppose you get to make your own choices but<br>
> >>> you need to make them well for those depending on you.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Jon<br>
> > <br>
><br>
> </p>
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