Re: [] Re: Pragmata = Objects?

List,

An off-list correspondent who would rather not post to a list just now commented in part:

"It seems to me that the distinction between an object and an act could be question at a basic level, as an "act" itself can be analyzed as an "object" of knowledge in its own right; and while acts are taken to be relational things, objects themselves can be analyzed into series of stabilized relations.  And, of course, objects (in the colloquial   
sense) are known through our possible relations with them, which relations are acts of a certain sort--encounters (in the sense of Peirce's Secondness) between different kinds of agents (ego and non-ego). 

Perhaps it's no accident that there appears to be some fuzziness room between the different senses of "pragma"?  Perhaps this could help us to better understand Peirce's pragmatic maxim."

I think there's a great deal of truth expressed here. However, I responded (in part):

I think your remarks are just to the point of, as you say, the "fuzziness room between the different senses of 'pragma'." As you wrote: "An 'act' itself can be analyzed as an 'object' of knowledge in its own right; and while acts are taken to be relational things, objects themselves can be analyzed into series of stabilized relations." So, acts can certainly be grasped as a kind of object, and objects as "series of stabilized relations." Agreed, I hope. 

Still, there seems to me something different from the Aristotelian position in Peirce's pragmatism that thrusts "all this" towards future interpretants. Not all objects are equal in the sense that certain intellectual acts tend toward the future in an 'evolutionary' sense. To reduce every thing (pragma) to an object seems to me to obscure in some way the Peircean pragmatic point as it relates to methodology. For at least some intellectual objects seem to tend toward the future "truth of the matter" so to speak, the upshot of any inquiry (formal or informal) which may be undertaken. In addition, that 'object' which is the vital semiosis itself, seems radically unlike most objects (except vital processes themselves, the similarity allowing us to come to understand these processes as a result of scientific inquiry, etc.) 

Yet, I agree that these 'tensions', shall we say, between object/act/relationship, etc. "could help us to better understand Peirce's pragmatic maxim."

Best,

Gary

>
>Re: Entry in Liddell and Scott:
>
>The root meaning of pragma seems to be "deed, act, occurrence, matter, affair," but secondary meanings include "thing, concrete reality, fact," etc. 
>
>So, I would tend to accept Jon's analysis in the first diagram in the paper I recently cited: pragmata can be objects (so, from a Peircean perspective, immediate or dynamic objects) which play a necessary part in a triadic semiotic process.
>
>Best,
>
>Gary
> 
>πρᾶγμα , ατος, to/, Ion. πρῆχμα Schwyzer 688 B16, C5 (Chios, v B. C.), GDI5598.4 (Ephesus); also πρῆγμα Hdt.5.33, al., but Hdt. perh. wrote πρῆχμα , which is v. l. in 1.133 ap.Ath.4.144a (cod. A), and in 3.49,57 (POxy.1619.326,379); cf. πρήχματος οὐχ ὁσίου imitated from Hdt. in Epigr.Gr.1092 (Erechtheum): (πράσσω):—
>A. deed, act, the concrete of πρᾶξις, but freq. approaching to the abstract sense, Thgn.116, al.; opp. λόγοι, D.2.12, etc.; “πραγμάτων ὀρθὰν ὁδόν” Pi.O. 7.46; γυναίου π. ἐποίει did the act of a woman, D.25.57, cf. 18.24, etc. 
>II. occurrence, matter, affair, “πᾶσαν τελευτὰν πράγματος” Pi.O. 13.75, cf. P.4.278; “τί τοῦδε σοὶ μέτεστι π. λέγε” A.Eu.575, cf. 584; “π. τοιόνδε συνηνείχθη γενέσθαι” Hdt.5.33, cf. 9.92, Th.2.64; “ἐς μέσον σφι προετίθεε τὸ π.” Hdt.1.206; “τί δ᾽ εἰδὼς τοῦδε π. πέρι;” S.Aj.747 codd.; “τὸ π. εἰς ὑπέρδεινόν μοι περιέστη” D.21.111; ὁρᾶτε τὸ π., οἷ προελήλυθε κτλ., Id.4.9, cf. 8.7. 
>2. thing, concrete reality, “ἆρ᾽ ἔστιν αὔλησίς τι π.;” Epich.171.1; opp. ὄνομα, Pl.Cra.391b, 436a, And.4.27; “δύο π . . . τοιάδε, οἷον Κρατύλος καὶ Κρατύλου εἰκών” Pl.Cra.432b; ὡς ἀργαλέον π. ἐστίν c. inf., Ar.Pl.1; “οὐδὲ π. οὐθέν ἐστι παρὰ τὰ μεγέθη . . τὰ αἰσθητὰ κεχωρισμένον” Arist. de An.432a3, cf. Mete.379a32, Ph.226b30, 227b28; “διαμάχονται περὶ τοῦ λευκὸν ἢ μὴ λευκὸν εἶναι τὸ π.” Plu.2.1109d, cf. 1112d; “ἐξ ἀζωΐας καὶ ζωῆς συγκείμενον π.” Porph.Sent.21 : pl., “τῶν π. ἀΐδιος ἔσσα” Philol.6, cf. Democr.164, Arist.Xen.974a25, Pol.1252a24; “τὰ μετέωρα π.” Ar.Nu.228, cf. 250, 741; opp. ὀνόματα, Pl.Cra.39oe, D.9.15. 
>b. contemptuously, thing, creature, κακῷ πράγματι wretched creature, viz. the sophist, Pl.Prt.312c; τούτῳ τῷ π., viz. the demos, Id.Grg.520b; “ὁ δῆμος ἀσταθμητότατον π.” D.19.136; ἄμαχον π., of a woman, X. Cyr.6.1.36. 
>3. like πρᾶξις 1.2, “ὄφελος” 1, in Hdt., πρῆγμά ἐστι or ἐστί μοι, c. inf., it is advantageous for me, “εὕρισκε π. οἱ εἶναι ἐλαύνειν” 1.79, cf. 4.11: with a neg., “εὕρισκέ οἱ οὐ π. εἶναι στρατεύεσθαι” Id.7.12: also c. acc. et inf., οὐδὲν ἂν εἴη π. γνώμας ἐμὲ σοὶ ἀποφαίνεσθαι there will be no advantage or need, Id.1.207; π. ἂν ἦν μοῦνον the only thing needful, Id.7.130. 
>4. thing of consequence or importance, π. ποιήσασθαι [τι] ib.150; “π. οὐδὲν ἐποιήσαντο” Id.6.63; οὐδὲν π., ὦ Σώκρατες no matter, S., Pl.Grg.447b, cf. E.Med.451; “ὡς . . οὐδὲν ὂν π., εἰ καὶ ἀποθάνοι” Pl.Euthphr.4d; δῆλον ἦν ὅτι π. τι εἴη that there was something the matter, X.An.4.1.17. 
>b. π. ἐστί μοι it concerns me, σφίσι τε καὶ Ἀθηναίοισι εἶναι οὐδὲν π. they had nothing to do with the A., Hdt.5.84, cf. D.18.283; ᾧ μὴ π. μὴ εἰσίναι no admittance except on business, Sammelb.6152.22 (i B. C.): c. gen. rei, οἷς μηδὲν ἦν π. τοῦ πολέμου who were not concerned in the war, Plu.Pomp.65; τὸ σὸν τί ἐστι π.; what is your pursuit or business, what are you about? Pl. Ap.20c, cf. Alc.1.104d. 
>c. μέγα π. a man of consequence, D.35.15; “τὸ μέγα π. ἐν τῇ πόλει” Men.Sam.175; ἦν μέγιστον π. Δημοκήδης παρὰ βασιλέϊ he was made much of by the king, Hdt.3.132; π. μέγα φρέατος a fine large tank, Alex.179. 
>5. used of a battle, action, affair, “ὡς οἱ σωθέντες ἐκ τοῦ π. ἀπέφυγον” X.HG7.1.17. 
>6. τὸ π. the love-affair of Harmodius and Aristogeiton, Aeschin.1.132. 
>7. fact, opp. λόγος, ὄνομα, Arist. Top.146a3, SE175a8; “πρὸς τὸ π. καὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν” Id.Ph.263a17: pl., “οὐκ ἐχρῆν τῶν π. τὴν γλῶσσαν ἰσχύειν πλέον” E.Hec.1188. 
>8. matter in hand, question, Hp.Acut.39; “πρὸς τὸ π.” Pl.Men.87a, Arist.APr.70a32, D.54.26; “διαιρεῖν κατὰ τὸ π.” Arist. Pol.1299b18; ἔξω τοῦ π., v. ἔξω 1.2b. 
>III. in pl., πράγματα, 
>1. circumstances, affairs, “τὰ ἀνθρωπήϊα π.” Hdt.1.207; “ἐν εἰρήνῃ καὶ ἀγαθοῖς π.” Th.3.82, cf. 1.89; τοῖς π. τέθνηκα τοῖς δ᾽ ἔργοισιν οὔ by circumstances, not by acts, E.Hel.286; “ἐν τοιούτοις π.” X.Mem.2.7.2, An.2.1.16, etc.; “δεινὸς πράγμασι χρῆσθαι” D.1.3, cf. X.HG3.5.1; “τύχη τὰ θνητῶν πράγματ᾽, οὐκ εὐβουλία” Chaerem.2; ἀποτυγχάνειν τῶν π. fail to prosper, X.Mem.4.2.28; the condition of a patient, “τὰ τῶν νοσεύντων π.” Hp.Prog.1 (also in sg., “ἐξαπίνης ὅλῳ τῷ π. μεταβάλλειν” Id.Acut. 35; so also poet., “ποῦ ποτ᾽ εἰμὶ πράγματος;” S.Tr.375, cf.Aj.314). 
>2. state-affairs, “τὰ πολιτικὰ π.” Pl.Ap.31d; ἔστ᾽ ἐν ἡμῖν τῆς πόλεως τὰ π. the fortunes of the state, Ar.Lys.32; a state or empire, τὰ Περσικὰ π. the Persian power, Hdt.3.137; “τὰ Περσέων π.” Id.7.50, etc.; “διαπεπόρθηται τὰ Περσῶν π.” A.Pers.714; “ἐν ταῖς ναυσὶ τῶν Ἑλλήνων τὰ π. ἐγένετο” Th.1.74; “μὴ ὥσπερ θεῷ νομίζετ᾽ ἐκείνῳ τὰ παρόντα πεπηγέναι π. ἀθάνατα” D.4.8, cf. 44, etc.; “παρασπάσασθαί τι τῶν ὅλων π.” Id.1.3; of government, “καταλαμβάνειν τὰ π.” Hdt.6.39, cf. Th.3.30 (Pass.); ἔχειν τὰ π. ib.62,72, cf. Hdt.6.83; “κατέχειν τὰ π.” Th.4.2; “ἐς μέσον Πέρσῃσι καταθεῖναι τὰ π.” Hdt.3.80; οἱ ἐν τοῖς π. those who are in power or office, Th.3.28, D.9.56, Arist.Pol.1307b10; “οἱ ἐπὶ τοῖς π. ὄντες” D.9.2; “οἱ ἐπὶ τῶν π.” Id.18.247, cf. Plb.3.69.4, LXX 1 Ma.3.32; ἐν “τυραννίδι καὶ πλούτῳ καὶ πράγμασι” Plu.2.150c; τριῶν ἀνδρῶν δημοσίων π. ἀποκαταστάσεως, = Lat. triumvir reipublicae constituendae, Sammelb. 4224.2 (i B. C.); “κοινωνοὶ τῶν π.” X.HG2.3.17; “νεώτερα π.” innovations, Lys.13.6, Isoc.7.59, etc., cf. Hdt.5.19; but εὐνούστατος τοῖς π. a friend to things as they are, Lys.12.65. 
>3. fortunes, cause, circumstances, Hdt.7.236, 237; “κοινὰ π.” E.IT1062; “τέρας γὰρ ὁ βίος καὶ τὰ π. ἐστί μου” Id.Hel.260; “ἔρρει τἀμὰ π.” X.Smp.1.15, cf. E.Alc.280: τὰ π. alone, one's all, one's fortunes, “ἐν ᾧπέρ ἐστι πάντα μοι τὰ π.” Ar.Ach. 474; = κτήματα, Hp.（Lex5?) ap.Erot.: in sg., “φαῦλον γὰρ ἂν εἴη τὸ ἐμὸν π.” Pl.Hp.Ma.286e, cf. Cri.53d, Ap.42a. 
>4. business, esp. lawbusiness, “πρός τινα” Antipho 6.12, Th.1.128; “οὔτε ἐμαυτοῦ οὔτε ἀλλότρια π. πράξας” Lys.12.3; “δικῶν γὰρ οὐ δέομ᾽ οὐδὲ πραγμάτων” Ar.V.1426; “πράγματα κἀντιγραφάς” Id.Nu.471 : metaph. in sg., πονηρὸν τὸ π. ἔχειν to have a bad case, Arist.Rh.1415b22. 
>5. in bad sense, trouble, annoyance, “ἁπάντων αἰτίους τῶν π.” Ar.Ach.310; πρήγματα ἔχειν, c. part., to have trouble about a thing, Hdt.7.147, cf. Pl.Tht.174b, etc.; “π. ἔχειν ἐν τῷ δείπνῳ” X.Cyr.1.3.4, etc.; “π. λαμβάνειν” Id.Lac.2.9; π. παρέχειν τινί to cause one trouble, Hdt.1.155, Ar.Pl.20, al.: c. inf., cause one the trouble of doing, Pl.Phd.115a, X.Cyr.4.5.46, Ar.V.313; “πραγμάτων . . ἀπαλλαγείς” Id.Ach.269 (lyr.), cf. Pl.Ap.41d, R.406e; ἄνευ πραγμάτων, σὺν πράγμασι, D.1.20, X.An.6.3.6: less freq.in sg., “μηδὲν πρῆγμα παρέχειν” Hdt.7.239.
>Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.
>>
>>Translating the Greek "pragma" with the Latin-rooted "object"
>>("something thrust in the way") makes sense if we take object
>>in all of its senses, from object of discussion, inquiry, and
>>thought ... through intentional object ... to aim, business,
>>concern, goal, objective, problem, purpose ... all of which
>>senses are found under the entries for "pragma" and its kin
>>in Liddell and Scott:
>>
>>http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pragma&la=greek#lexicon
>>
>>Jon
>>
>>-- 
>>
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>>
>>
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>						
>Gary Richmond
>Philosophy and Critical Thinking
>Speech Communication
>Humanities Department
>LaGuardia College 
>City University of New York								
						
Gary Richmond
Philosophy and Critical Thinking
Speech Communication
Humanities Department
LaGuardia College 
City University of New York