Re: Fw: Question about GPL (semi off topic)
Christian Cryder <[email protected]> Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:17:49 -0600
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Jacob Kjome wrote:
>Hi Christian,
>
>I think this has more to do with the preconditions they apply as to when MySQL
>is to be run under the GPL and when it has to run under a proprietary license.
>And I think the precondition turns on the entity using the product, not the code
>that might access the database. You, being an ASP, can't obtain/use MySQL under
>the GPL licence because of who you are. If preconditions allowed you to
>obtain/use MySQL under the GPL, then at that point you could consider GPL
>restrictions and allowances as it pertains to your code. However, failing that
>precondition, any GPL considerations are moot.
>
>Basically, I think you are dealing with two separate issues. Initially, you
>assumed that you could use MySQL under the GPL and then were asking questions
>about how a GPL'd MySQL would affect your non-GPL'd code. But MySQL is telling
>you that GPL is out of the question for ASP's (like yourself). As such, your
>initial questions are probably meaningless as it pertains to MySQL. However,
>if you use another DB which is only licensed under the GPL, then your original
>questions and findings have meaning.
>
>Of course this is all completely my own interpretation so take it with a great
>big grain of salt.
>
>
I suspect you are probably right, Jake - I just don't fully understand
it yet. Are you saying that someone can apply additional conditions to
GPL - ie. you can't be business type X, which does ABC, etc - without
actually modifying the GPL? That's the part I don't understand. I
thought the GPL carries the conditions of use within its verbiage.
I'm not really seeking to argue any particular point here - I'm just
trying to understand how this thing works, particularly in reference to
GPL...
BTW, when I asked the MySQL guy this followup question:
Hi Matt. Thanks so much for your response.
I have a followup question (because I know I'm going to get asked
this by my peers here). Could you explain to me how the GPL has
anything to do with us being an ASP? In other words, what part of
the GPL distinguishes between whether a webapp on our servers is
being accessed internally (from local network) vs. externally (via
our clients)? Wouldn't we run into the exact same issue simply by
using Linux servers (after all, Linux is GPL too)?
Please explain. Thanks.
Christian
here was his response:
Christian,
Linux is open source but I don't believe it is licensed under the
GPL. You can find the GPL terms and FAQ here,
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
Regards,
Matt
Hmmm...that clearly isn't correct (cf.
http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html). So I'm waiting for further
explanation from them... Up to this point I just seem to be getting
vague answers, but hopefully they're clarify here soon. I'll keep people
posted on what they say, and if anyone else has insight, please feel
free to educate me...
Christian
-----Original Message-----
*From:* Christian Cryder [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:15 AM
*To:* Matt Fredrickson
*Subject:* Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]
>
>Jake
>
>Quoting Christian Cryder <[email protected]>:
>
>
>
>>Just an FYI... Here's the response I got from the MySQL guys.
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>From: Matt Fredrickson <[email protected]>
>>Date: May 18, 2005 4:12 PM
>>Subject: MySQL Inquiry
>>To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>>
>>
>>Hi Christian,
>>
>>Thank you for your interest in MySQL. If you are an ASP and your
>>application is not open source, we will need to arrange some sort of
>>arrangement. Do you pay you a service or subscription fee? How is
>>that structured?
>>
>>If you are not an ASP and you are simply letting the public access
>>your website, licensing is not required and you are fine with the GPL.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Matt Fredrickson
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>So from their perspective, if you are an ASP (which we consider
>>ourselves to be), you must either GPL your app -OR- pay them a license
>>fee. Since we aren't inclined to do either of those, MySQL won't be an
>>option for us.
>>
>>What is not clear to me is how they are reading the GPL to arrive at
>>this conclusion. What is clear to me is that they evidently feel they
>>have a legal basis for their position, so it seems fairly risky (to me)
>>to simply bank on my own interpretation of the license here.
>>
>>If this is in fact the case, it would seem to have significant
>>implications for any ASP models using GPL code - what they seem to be
>>saying is that it doesn't matter whether you extend or even redistribute
>>the code (we don't do either). What matters is that you are "a
>>for-profit business is using the code in a centrally hosted application
>>which their customers can access."
>>
>>Anyway, just thought I'd share our findings...
>>Christian
>>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi Christian,
>>>
>>>1. If you are not distributing GPL code, you have no GPL issues (But
>>>see #4 below)
>>> From the http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html, Section 0,
>>>Paragraph 2:
>>>
>>> Activities other than copying, distribution and modification
>>>are not covered by this License; they
>>> are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not
>>>restricted, and the output from the Program
>>> is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the
>>>Program (independent of having been made
>>> by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what
>>>the Program does.
>>>
>>>
>>>2. Internal distribution is NOT distribution
>>> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCInternalDistribution
>>> Is making and using multiple copies within one organization or
>>>company "distribution"?
>>> No, in that case the organization is just making
>>>the copies for itself. As a consequence,
>>> a company or other organization can develop a modified
>>>version and install that version
>>> through its own facilities, without giving the staff
>>>permission to release that modified version to outsiders.
>>>
>>> However, when the organization transfers copies to
>>>other organizations or individuals, that is distribution.
>>> In particular, providing copies to contractors for use
>>>off-site is distribution.
>>>
>>> Even if not, you only have to provide the source to the people
>>>who has obtained the executable.
>>> They can't ask for the source if they don't have the exe.
>>> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCCanIDemandACopy
>>> If I know someone has a copy of a GPL-covered program, can I
>>>demand he give me a copy?
>>> No. The GPL gives him permission to make and redistribute
>>>copies of the program if he chooses to do so.
>>> He also has the right not to redistribute the program, if
>>>that is what he chooses
>>>
>>>
>>>3. There were some issue about the output of the application
>>> FAQ:
>>>http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCWhatCaseIsOutputGPL
>>> In what cases is the output of a GPL program covered by the
>>>GPL too?
>>> Only when the program copies part of itself into the output.
>>>
>>>
>>>4. Here is where you may be in trouble.... It says you are ok. but
>>>in the next paragraph it says you may not be.....
>>>
>>> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCUnreleasedMods
>>> A company is running a modified version of a GPL'ed program on
>>>a web site. Does the GPL say they must release their modified sources?
>>> The GPL permits anyone to make a modified version and use
>>>it without ever distributing it to others.
>>> What this company is doing is a special case of that.
>>>Therefore, the company does not have to release the modified sources.
>>>
>>> It is essential for people to have the freedom to make
>>>modifications and use them privately,
>>> without ever publishing those modifications. However,
>>>putting the program on a server machine
>>> for the public to talk to is hardly "private" use, so it
>>>would be legitimate to require release of the
>>> source code in that special case. We are thinking about
>>>doing something like this in
>>> GPL version 3, but we don't have precise wording in mind yet.
>>>
>>> In the mean time, you might want to use the Affero GPL for
>>>programs designed for network server use.
>>>
>>>
>>>All of the above is really a secondary question.
>>>The real question is does you program come under the GPL just because
>>>you use the MySql jdbc driver.
>>>
>>>Under the GPL, If your program uses a GPL library, then your program
>>>becomes subject to the GPL (the reason for the LGPL, the Lesser GPL)
>>>A. So the driver is under the GPL. If I make changes to the driver,
>>>I have to release the changes to the driver.
>>>B. If I use the driver, Is that like linking to the library? and
>>>comes under the GPL.
>>>C. Driver is not a library, and so my application is not subject to
>>>the GPL.
>>>
>>>So back to the GPL FAQ's
>>>
>>>http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCGPLPluginsInNF
>>>http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCNFUseGPLPlugins
>>>
>>>Seems to suggest that only way option C would apply is if an exec or
>>>fork is used to access/invoke the driver
>>>
>>>Finally, given that MySQL went through the effort to change their
>>>Driver license from LGPL to GPL
>>>(to "more easily differentiate between a proprietary user who should
>>>buy a commercial license ")
>>>would suggest that the applications would come under the GPL
>>>
>>> http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/faq.html
>>> Previously, the MySQL client libraries were licensed under the
>>>LGPL (the Lesser General Public License)
>>> and now they use the GPL (the General Public License). What
>>>prompted this change?
>>>
>>> MySQL's goal is to provide all its software under a free
>>>software/open source license. The change from the
>>> LGPL to the GPL for the client libraries was made in 2001
>>>during the development of MySQL 4.0 to help MySQL AB
>>> more easily differentiate between a proprietary user who
>>>should buy a commercial license ...
>>>
>>>
>>>In Conclusion,
>>>My opinion (I'm not a lawyer) is that if you use the MySQL driver,
>>>your application becomes subject to the GPL license.
>>>Given that the Barracuda is under the LGPL, no real issues with the
>>>application.
>>>So only issue is #4 above.... Using the application on a public web
>>>site **MIGHT** be considered distribution in the future ...
>>>
>>>
>>>Edward
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Christian Cryder <[email protected]>*
>>>
>>>05/13/2005 11:54 AM
>>>Please respond to christian.cryder
>>>
>>>
>>> To: BarracudaMVC <[email protected]>
>>> cc:
>>> Subject: [barracuda] Question about GPL (semi off topic)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hey, I am researching open source db's on Linux right now, looking
>>>primarily at Postgress (BSD) vs. MySQL (GPL), and I am just wondering
>>>about licensing issues. My understanding is that if you are simply
>>>_using_ a GPL'd product (like a db), rather than actually modiying or
>>>bundling it, GPL wouldn't apply to your code. But the MySQL site seems
>>>kind of ambiguous in how they describe it.
>>>
>>>So to put it specfically - proprietary server based applications (ie.
>>>vertical solutions) that use Barracuda, Tomcat, etc. and simply
>>>store/retrieve data in a GPL DB would NOT be subject to GPL. Right?
>>>
>>>Anyone know of any resources out there that would explicitly confirm
>>>(or deny!) that understanding?
>>>--
>>>
>>>Christian
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Christian Cryder
>>>Internet Architect, _ATMReports.com_ <http://atmreports.com/>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>/"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"//_
>>>_//_http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com_/
>>><http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>--
>>
>>Christian
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Christian Cryder
>>Internet Architect, ATMReports.com <http://atmreports.com>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>/"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"
>>http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--
>Barracuda mailing list
>[email protected]
>http://www.objectweb.org/wws/lists/projects/barracuda
>
>
--
Christian
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Cryder
Internet Architect, ATMReports.com <http://atmreports.com>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
/"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"
http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/
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Jacob Kjome wrote:
<blockquote cite="[email protected]" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Christian,
I think this has more to do with the preconditions they apply as to when MySQL
is to be run under the GPL and when it has to run under a proprietary license.
And I think the precondition turns on the entity using the product, not the code
that might access the database. You, being an ASP, can't obtain/use MySQL under
the GPL licence because of who you are. If preconditions allowed you to
obtain/use MySQL under the GPL, then at that point you could consider GPL
restrictions and allowances as it pertains to your code. However, failing that
precondition, any GPL considerations are moot.
Basically, I think you are dealing with two separate issues. Initially, you
assumed that you could use MySQL under the GPL and then were asking questions
about how a GPL'd MySQL would affect your non-GPL'd code. But MySQL is telling
you that GPL is out of the question for ASP's (like yourself). As such, your
initial questions are probably meaningless as it pertains to MySQL. However,
if you use another DB which is only licensed under the GPL, then your original
questions and findings have meaning.
Of course this is all completely my own interpretation so take it with a great
big grain of salt.
</pre>
</blockquote>
I suspect you are probably right, Jake - I just don't fully understand
it yet. Are you saying that someone can apply additional conditions to
GPL - ie. you can't be business type X, which does ABC, etc - without
actually modifying the GPL? That's the part I don't understand. I
thought the GPL carries the conditions of use within its verbiage.<br>
<br>
I'm not really seeking to argue any particular point here - I'm just
trying to understand how this thing works, particularly in reference to
GPL...<br>
<br>
BTW, when I asked the MySQL guy this followup question:<br>
<blockquote>Hi Matt. Thanks so much for your response.<br>
<br>
I have a followup question (because I know I'm going to get asked this
by my peers here). Could you explain to me how the GPL has anything to
do with us being an ASP? In other words, what part of the GPL
distinguishes between whether a webapp on our servers is being accessed
internally (from local network) vs. externally (via our clients)?
Wouldn't we run into the exact same issue simply by using Linux servers
(after all, Linux is GPL too)?<br>
<br>
Please explain. Thanks.<br>
<br>
Christian<br>
</blockquote>
here was his response:<br>
<blockquote>
<div><span class="267463916-01062005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Courier New" size="2">Christian,</font></span></div>
<div><span class="267463916-01062005"></span> </div>
<div><span class="267463916-01062005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Courier New" size="2">Linux is open source but I don't believe
it is licensed under the GPL. You can find the GPL terms and FAQ here,
<a href="http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html">http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html</a></font></span></div>
<div><span class="267463916-01062005"></span> </div>
<div><span class="267463916-01062005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Courier New" size="2">Regards,</font></span></div>
<div><span class="267463916-01062005"></span> </div>
<div><span class="267463916-01062005"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Courier New" size="2">Matt</font></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left" dir="ltr" lang="en-us">Hmmm...that
clearly isn't correct (cf.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html">http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html</a>).
So I'm waiting for further explanation from them... Up to this point I
just seem to be getting vague answers, but hopefully they're clarify
here soon. I'll keep people posted on what they say, and if anyone else
has insight, please feel free to educate me...<br>
<br>
Christian<br>
<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> Christian Cryder [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matt Fredrickson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fwd: Fwd: MySQL Inquiry]<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="[email protected]" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Jake
Quoting Christian Cryder <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a>:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Just an FYI... Here's the response I got from the MySQL guys.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Matt Fredrickson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a>
Date: May 18, 2005 4:12 PM
Subject: MySQL Inquiry
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]">"[email protected]"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a>
Hi Christian,
Thank you for your interest in MySQL. If you are an ASP and your
application is not open source, we will need to arrange some sort of
arrangement. Do you pay you a service or subscription fee? How is
that structured?
If you are not an ASP and you are simply letting the public access
your website, licensing is not required and you are fine with the GPL.
Sincerely,
Matt Fredrickson
--------------------------------------------------------------------
So from their perspective, if you are an ASP (which we consider
ourselves to be), you must either GPL your app -OR- pay them a license
fee. Since we aren't inclined to do either of those, MySQL won't be an
option for us.
What is not clear to me is how they are reading the GPL to arrive at
this conclusion. What is clear to me is that they evidently feel they
have a legal basis for their position, so it seems fairly risky (to me)
to simply bank on my own interpretation of the license here.
If this is in fact the case, it would seem to have significant
implications for any ASP models using GPL code - what they seem to be
saying is that it doesn't matter whether you extend or even redistribute
the code (we don't do either). What matters is that you are "a
for-profit business is using the code in a centrally hosted application
which their customers can access."
Anyway, just thought I'd share our findings...
Christian
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Christian,
1. If you are not distributing GPL code, you have no GPL issues (But
see #4 below)
From the <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html">http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html</a>, Section 0,
Paragraph 2:
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification
are not covered by this License; they
are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not
restricted, and the output from the Program
is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the
Program (independent of having been made
by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what
the Program does.
2. Internal distribution is NOT distribution
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCInternalDistribution">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCInternalDistribution</a>
Is making and using multiple copies within one organization or
company "distribution"?
No, in that case the organization is just making
the copies for itself. As a consequence,
a company or other organization can develop a modified
version and install that version
through its own facilities, without giving the staff
permission to release that modified version to outsiders.
However, when the organization transfers copies to
other organizations or individuals, that is distribution.
In particular, providing copies to contractors for use
off-site is distribution.
Even if not, you only have to provide the source to the people
who has obtained the executable.
They can't ask for the source if they don't have the exe.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCCanIDemandACopy">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCCanIDemandACopy</a>
If I know someone has a copy of a GPL-covered program, can I
demand he give me a copy?
No. The GPL gives him permission to make and redistribute
copies of the program if he chooses to do so.
He also has the right not to redistribute the program, if
that is what he chooses
3. There were some issue about the output of the application
FAQ:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCWhatCaseIsOutputGPL">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCWhatCaseIsOutputGPL</a>
In what cases is the output of a GPL program covered by the
GPL too?
Only when the program copies part of itself into the output.
4. Here is where you may be in trouble.... It says you are ok. but
in the next paragraph it says you may not be.....
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCUnreleasedMods">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCUnreleasedMods</a>
A company is running a modified version of a GPL'ed program on
a web site. Does the GPL say they must release their modified sources?
The GPL permits anyone to make a modified version and use
it without ever distributing it to others.
What this company is doing is a special case of that.
Therefore, the company does not have to release the modified sources.
It is essential for people to have the freedom to make
modifications and use them privately,
without ever publishing those modifications. However,
putting the program on a server machine
for the public to talk to is hardly "private" use, so it
would be legitimate to require release of the
source code in that special case. We are thinking about
doing something like this in
GPL version 3, but we don't have precise wording in mind yet.
In the mean time, you might want to use the Affero GPL for
programs designed for network server use.
All of the above is really a secondary question.
The real question is does you program come under the GPL just because
you use the MySql jdbc driver.
Under the GPL, If your program uses a GPL library, then your program
becomes subject to the GPL (the reason for the LGPL, the Lesser GPL)
A. So the driver is under the GPL. If I make changes to the driver,
I have to release the changes to the driver.
B. If I use the driver, Is that like linking to the library? and
comes under the GPL.
C. Driver is not a library, and so my application is not subject to
the GPL.
So back to the GPL FAQ's
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCGPLPluginsInNF">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCGPLPluginsInNF</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCNFUseGPLPlugins">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCNFUseGPLPlugins</a>
Seems to suggest that only way option C would apply is if an exec or
fork is used to access/invoke the driver
Finally, given that MySQL went through the effort to change their
Driver license from LGPL to GPL
(to "more easily differentiate between a proprietary user who should
buy a commercial license ")
would suggest that the applications would come under the GPL
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/faq.html">http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/faq.html</a>
Previously, the MySQL client libraries were licensed under the
LGPL (the Lesser General Public License)
and now they use the GPL (the General Public License). What
prompted this change?
MySQL's goal is to provide all its software under a free
software/open source license. The change from the
LGPL to the GPL for the client libraries was made in 2001
during the development of MySQL 4.0 to help MySQL AB
more easily differentiate between a proprietary user who
should buy a commercial license ...
In Conclusion,
My opinion (I'm not a lawyer) is that if you use the MySQL driver,
your application becomes subject to the GPL license.
Given that the Barracuda is under the LGPL, no real issues with the
application.
So only issue is #4 above.... Using the application on a public web
site **MIGHT** be considered distribution in the future ...
Edward
*Christian Cryder <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a>*
05/13/2005 11:54 AM
Please respond to christian.cryder
To: BarracudaMVC <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a>
cc:
Subject: [barracuda] Question about GPL (semi off topic)
Hey, I am researching open source db's on Linux right now, looking
primarily at Postgress (BSD) vs. MySQL (GPL), and I am just wondering
about licensing issues. My understanding is that if you are simply
_using_ a GPL'd product (like a db), rather than actually modiying or
bundling it, GPL wouldn't apply to your code. But the MySQL site seems
kind of ambiguous in how they describe it.
So to put it specfically - proprietary server based applications (ie.
vertical solutions) that use Barracuda, Tomcat, etc. and simply
store/retrieve data in a GPL DB would NOT be subject to GPL. Right?
Anyone know of any resources out there that would explicitly confirm
(or deny!) that understanding?
--
Christian
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Cryder
Internet Architect, _ATMReports.com_ <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://atmreports.com/"><http://atmreports.com/></a>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
/"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"//_
_//_<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com_/">http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com_/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/"><http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
--
Christian
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Cryder
Internet Architect, ATMReports.com <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://atmreports.com"><http://atmreports.com></a>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
/"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today"
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/">http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
<pre wrap="">
<hr size="4" width="90%">
--
Barracuda mailing list
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<p>Christian</p>
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<td width="100%"><font face="Arial">Christian Cryder<br>
Internet Architect, <a href="http://atmreports.com">ATMReports.com</a></font></td>
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<p align="center"><i>"Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not
today"<br>
<a href="http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com"><font size="2">http://seelifedifferently.blogspot.com</font></a></i></p>
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