Re: Jini vs/and OSGi

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> The "bashing" happens in both directions, but since OSGi seems to "take off",
> Jini is the one who has the most to loose (market wise). OSGi "just" loose a
> great solution to (for OSGi Alliance) a yet to be defined problem.

Since Jini has no standard container model short of com.sun.jini.start, there is
a primary issue with "where" to use OSGi at.  The use of OSGi would require some
type of container as a starting point.  That container would need to be a
beneficial and non-risky addition to what's in place now, and for many who have
deployed services and created infrastructures already, the pain would be an
issue for deployment/interface conversions that would be necessary.

This is the kind of push back that any technology would have to deal with being
integrated/accepted into an existing codebase.  I think it's important to
approach this with out the us and them, you and they kind of mantra that is
edging into this conversation.

The Newton work has demonstrated that it is possible.  Does that restrict how
Jini is used, or does it focus on a particular type of deployment?  I think it
does to some degree.  It's not a bad thing that it does this.  It's just part of
the picture.

My primary use of Jini is as an integration technology for allowing disparate
JVMs running single services to find other interesting services and let them
interact.

I do deploy many smaller services using the com.sun.jini.start infrastructure.
That would be the place that I could make use of a different deployment mechanism.

> I do. I am in the EEG. There is no "direction" yet. A phase of requirements
> gathering is happening. Anyone is free to submit a so called RFP which
> describes the problem domain, use-cases and requirements for a solution.
> And here is your chance. Express Jini in these terms, and I'll help push that
> requirement into the RFC (the solution) in a format that makes Jini the most
> obvious choice of implementation. Spring is doing the pain-staking RFP of a
> solution where the spec is almost done.

Niclas, do you think that OSGi needs to include Jini, Jini needs to include
OSGi, or that somehow both need to "work" in the presence of the other?

> On Saturday 31 March 2007 02:27, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
>>I'm at a loss for how to further explain that, right now, I just
>>don't see that I can possibly get any benefit from OSGi.  I use
>>netbeans for my IDE, so I don't see OSGi as a piece of my
>>environment as an eclipse user might.
>
> Here is the essence of why Jini is a marginal technology. The "what can X give
> to Jini" instead of "what can Jini give to X". Purely egoistic, for obvious
> reasons. People who need Jini, must use Jini due to the nature of their
> business, automatically restrict themselves in how the "environment" will
> look like.

Jini is not an expansive technology. It is not a container.  It is not an
application.  Jini is a toolset and an architectural style, which takes
advantage of many features of the JVM.  Many enterprise platforms/technolgies
either shield the user from key things which Jini depends on, or restrict access
in ways which limit or remove important choice points.

The reason why you sense "what can X give to Jini", is that essentially Jini is
the less restrictive environment.  So in general, my comments will reflect my
bias toward the thought that it's probably more appropriate to allow a
particular Jini SOA to include concepts from another, rather than pushing Jini
into some other environment.

> Yeah, not speaking of "publicly" as in going into a sales position, but I was
> refering to 'here'. Gregg says; "OSGi can't give me anything" and I have
> heard Dan, you and others essentially saying that "Here is a list of
> scenarios where OSGi can't be used, and here is another list of stuff I would
> loose out on if I deploy on OSGi, and here is a list...."
> "Proud" as in "I have the answers to my questions, and not interested in
> sharing..."

Well, I guess that the big thing for me is that I have time, money and
infrastructure in place.  What's the big thing I need now?  A deployment model
that includes infrastructure control as in what Mark has been doing with Seven.
  Could OSGi be a part of that?  Certainly, I said that before.  But, right now,
I don't use anything based on OSGi.  This means that I have no day to day
exposure to it's use, benefits or otherwise.  That's a barrier for my entry into
the OSGi world.  It's a personal thing.  I have countless projects that I am
behind on because of how many things I am already trying to squeeze into a day.

I don't feel that I have a problem that exists now, which OSGi is suddenly going
to simplify by orders of magnitude.  If there was a Jini container that was OSGi
aware, and it was all over the place, then I have several services that I'd be
very interested in releasing as products and/or open source projects.  That's
what I mean by "can't give me anything."

> Gregg; I agree that the Eclipse folks are obnoxiously proud. The lower level
> guys (Equinox) are more humble and always open to discuss technology.

That's good to know!

Gregg Wonderly

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