Re: a little something worth noting . . .

On Fri, Apr 18 2003 at 09:26:04am -0400, dep wrote:
> begin  Roberto H. Alsina's  quote:
> 
> | Bollocks. Arrest without trial, based on suspicion is bad. In Cuba,
> | and in the US.
> 
> where is it that people are tried and then arrested? and in any case, 
> while incarceration of people before charges are filed is not the 
> best of all things, there are things that are much, much worse. which 
> is why there are clear and present danger exemptions even to the 
> first amendment.


Sorry, I meant imprisoned for indefinite terms without trial.
But sure, there aer worse things. They could just be killed.

You know, when we used to put our disidents in prison without
pressing charges, for indefinite terms without trial, there was this phrase:

"They must have done something" (Algo habrÃn hecho). That phrase was just
a blanket keeping warm those who wished it didn't happen to them.
Later we learned many have not really done anything. But I know
(although I was too young to actually remember) how it started.

Sure, let's hold these guys for a while. In the name of fighting terrorism.
That is just how it started.

> | Having handled money and expressed an opinion is not basis for
> | arrest, it is not really even basis for investigation, unless you
> | accept the government has the right to observe everyone's
> | activities as much as they please. Else, free speech is not free,
> | because it makes you a target.
> 
> that depends. if the opinion i expressed is that you should be killed, 
> and if it is known that there is someone who will kill you for an 
> amount of money, and an amount of money entrusted to me disappears, 
> nothing in the world connected with free speech is involved.

And with that, nothing will happen either. You would need to show how
the money was actually paid, and that the killer actually killed. What
you just described, if used to imprison someone, is a travesty.

> | I did. It's one of the easy ways the government has to see if they
> | can nail someone against who they failed to collect proper
> | evidence. Capone, for instance.
> 
> so, then, your argument is that al capone should not have been jailed? 

No. BUt don't worry, you will understand it in due time.

> fact is, use of tax law to prosecute someone who can't be nailed on 
> other charges is exceedingly rare -- nowhere near as common as the 
> use of "civil rights violations" as a means of circumventing the 
> proscription on double jeopardy. which *is* a problem.
> 
> | So what? Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if that was wrong, of
> | course.
> 
> nonsense. the sentence that two wrongs do not make a right is one of 
> the most vapid things that anyone ever said. example: it is wrong to 
> cut off somebody's leg. it is also wrong to die of gangrene. if by 
> the former the latter is prevented, two wrongs have if not made a 
> right at least prevented a larger wrong.

The vapid thing is believing that cutting a leg is always wrong. IN this
case, it is actually right.

> a far more sensible caution 
> is that the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Sure. And measure twice cut once, but I think it only applies to carpentry.

> | Not yet. Of course some have been arrested without any charges at
> | all, so maybe they will be. Or maybe they won't bother.
> 
> treason is a very specific crime, and it has very specific 
> requirements if it is to be asserted. it is unlikely that it will be.

One reason for it being unlikely is that the US apparently has decided that
if a citizen is a traitor, he is an enemy combatatnt, and thus not worthy of 
trial, for treason or anything else.

> | You can't accuse someone of thought crimes. YOu need to wait for
> | him to at least plan to do some action.
> 
> what i can or cannot accuse anyone of makes no difference. the 
> previously mentioned clear and present danger exemption, particularly 
> when the nation has been attacked, is not something that any thinking 
> person has a problem with. you must remember that during the civil 
> war lincoln flat-out suspended habeas corpus with impunity.

So? Have I ever said that Lincoln was perfect?

> when your 
> house is on fire, you are less inclined to be upset when a big truck 
> pulls up and the men aboard it begin breaking out the windows and 
> filling it with thousands of gallons of water than you would be if 
> your house were not on fire.

Sure. I also have lived in the country that results after that happens.

> | Dude, read. I didn't say that. Benjamin Franklin did.
> 
> and you took his part. it was a silly thing for him to have said.

Well, let's see.... Franklin, dep... a scale... nah, I think
I will keep Franklin.

> | Hail Caesar! And completely unrelated to what it pretends to
> | answer. Fact: citizens arrested without trial in the US.
> | Fact: citizens arrested without trial in Cuba.
> | Fact: citizens arrested without trial in Iraq.
> 
> fact: people in all three breathe air. your moral equivalence argument 
> is simply uncomposted fertilizer. 

Are you saying one of those three is not right? I said so in the part
you deleted. Which one is it, Dennis?

> | I am not, since in any case, Argentina is exepmt from them.
> | I am speaking about agropecuary subsidies.
> 
> i agree that the payment of subsidies at all is economically unsound, 
> for everyone. as are other forms of government largesse.

So what? It's not as if you can do anything about it. Or me, for that 
matter. If in the future such actions cause a backlash, however, you are 
going to be one of the first saying the backlash is not the USA fault.

 ("\''/").__..-''"`-. .         Roberto Alsina
 `9_ 9  )   `-. (    ).`-._.`)  [email protected]
 (_Y_.)' ._   ) `._`.  " -.-'   KDE Developer (MFCH)
  _..`-'_..-_/ /-'_.'           
(l)-'' ((i).' ((!.'             Buenos Aires - Argentina

Imminentizing the eschaton since 1971. (Yes, that's an i)

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