Re: How Views Cause the Situation to Change (was Re: Cheney's...)

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> >   I'm not suggesting Canada is bad, I'm just suggesting the USA has
> > always been, and continues to be, known as the place to go for a new
> > start.
>
> What do you know?  Where have you been that you have seen this?  I would
> agree this was true once, but I think Bush has pretty much ended that era.

  Well, I think I can make assumptions on a general scale without traveling 
around the world.

> > Lots of
> > people are obviously happy and well off elsewhere (and I think Canada is
> > great and would love to go up there someday)...
>
> So you are good at judging countries you have never been too.  How American
> - and I mean in the arrogant, obnoxious way ;-).

  Okay, I haven't been to Canada so I'll just assume it is neither good nor 
bad for now. ;-) Seriously, I am judging that Canada is a nice place, and I 
have every reason to assume it is.

> > but if someone wanted to go
> > somewhere to start a new life and go somewhere, the USA has always been
> > that place.
>
> Not to derail your train of thought with some facts in the way :-), but for
> example at http://www.gcir.org/about_immigration/world_map_intro.htm it
> says:

  The U.S. population is also a lot larger.

  (In thousands)

  US Pop: 285,003
  CA Pop: 30,769
  AU Pop: 19,153

  Percentages sometimes lie. The existing population is irrelevant to the 
number of immigrants themselves.


> >   Not superior. There are many countries that are quite good, but I think
> > the initial dream continues to be American.
>
> Wow, you really have a way of being offensive to other people.  Then you
> wonder why people are anti-American.  Here is a clue:  you keep telling
> others they are inferior to you, they will not like you.  And in this case

  I'm not. I'm suggesting the dream that is known as the "American Dream" 
originated in America (hence the name). That doesn't mean other places or bad 
or not as good, simply it wasn't "invented" there. The Greeks can claim much 
of our thought originates from there, and certainly that doesn't make them 
superior. That is just the way it is. Lots of things originate in different 
countries.

  The American Dream is from the US. There may be many stories of people 
living the "American Dream" in Canada, I don't know whether that is true or 
not. It has nothing to do with the point that the American dream is 
originally from the United States.

> One of the truly great things I appreciate about the US is that there are
> many opportunities for immigrants.  Not as great as there should be, but
> greater than many other places, and in particular greater than in Europe
> which suffers too much from control by the banks.  I assume though that
> places like Canada and Australia offer similar opportunities.

  Probably. They are nice places. My point was simply that America isn't as 
bad as it is often made out to be on this list. Really, there is often the 
reverse of American "superioritism" (taking liberties to coin a word) on this 
list. 

> This "American dream" exists outside the US?  I thought the "American
> dream" was to own your own house, have a new car, have a new VCR, and
> generally be a hedonist conformist consumerist ;-) (I actaully think the
> owning the own home thing is very important, BTW, but all the consumerism
> can go away and this country and the world would be the better for it).

  Well, I think more specifically, it was being able to come into the country 
dirt poor, and with initiative and a good plan, you could really make it. And 
indeed, you can. Homes, VCR's, and other hedonist conformist consumerist 
things are all trimmings on that much more worthy ideal (I second the part 
about home ownership being good).

> Actually there is a tremendous amount of fat to be trimmed.  And right/left
> directions are pointless, it says nothing.  If you have particular points
> to make, those may say more.  Conservative means, "like in the past", so
> for example approving of abortion is "conservative" b/c that is the past. 
> At least according to Webster's:

  That is true, although most people understand what it means in context to 
the existing political atmosphere.

  -Tim

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy R. Butler       Universal Networks      www.uninet.info
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