Re: Mars in their eyes

On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 07:36:34PM -0500, Andreas Pour wrote:
> > The top party leaders. When you rant about Democrats or Republicans, you
> > don't mean to target all registered members of either party, do you?
> 
> If it were after an invasion of the US and you said "most Republicans fled" I
> would say that it is hard to know what group you are referring to.

Allright, I ment the top party leaders. And it is by no means *my*
speculation they went to Syria.

> > Who said anything about Al-Qaeda? Now who's buying into the media hype on
> > OBL.. last time I checked, the phrase was "the war on terrorism", not a war
> > on one specific group of terrorists.
> 
> I see, so the "war on drugs" also includes Prozac and Zoloft, or the far less
> harmful marijuana?

Actually, marijuana is included. Last time I was in the U.S. it wasn't
available in coffeeshops. Now I don't agree with that inclusion, but that's
a completely different issue. You're implying the war on Iraq is unjust
because marijuana is banned in the States?

> As to who said anything about Al Qaeda, you are not doing a good job of keeping
> up with the lies spouted by your fascist heroes.  For example, "President Bush's
> national security adviser Wednesday said Saddam Hussein has sheltered al Qaeda
> terrorists in Baghdad and helped train some in chemical weapons development" -
> see http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/ .

> Please, if you are going to support the criminals in the Bush Admnistration,
> don't pull a 1984 and pretend the lies they made were not made.  Fortunatley
> Microsoft does not yet have the technology to change webpages retroactively so
> people can still look it up.

So let me see: when I believe the administration, I'm a propaganda puppet.
When I don't believe them on a certain issue, I'm not keeping up with
propaganda and therefore just as incredible. I can't win, can I, unless I
completely subject myself to your thoughts.

I won't. I'll hear you out, I'll hear Bush out, I'll look around me, and
form my own thoughts. What's wrong with that?

> > And the idea has been that the weapons had been transported out of the
> > country (some time? long?) before the war, not during. I can't back up any
> > of that, but then again I don't rant "this is the truth, when will people
> > finally see it". Fact is, we both don't know shit about Iraq. But you're
> > constantly applauding yourself as the bearer of truth.
> 
> Really?  Where?  I think it is the criminals in the Bush Administration who do
> that.

The tone of your e-mails. Haven't you said you're doing this in the
hopes people will open their eyes and learn the truth?

> Interestingly, I watched ABC nightly news today.  The lead-off story involved a
> statement in a September 2002 DIA report, the final report before the Iraqi
> invasion, stating that there is "no reliable evidence" of Iraq producing or
> possessing chemical weapons.  Moments later, they showed a contemporaneous tape
> of Donald Fascist Rumsfeld lieing about the fact that Iraq has chemical weapons
> and "there is no debate about it, we are absolutely sure".
>
> I know one thing for sure:  the Bush Administration LIED, LIED, LIED, and if you
> had any backbone at all you would admit it.  EVEN IF weapons of mass destruction
> are now found, and EVEN IF they were not planted, it would still have been lies,
> and the find would be cirumtuitous.  The fact is there was *NO* intelligence
> saying what the neo-con-men and sundry Bush fascists were lieing to everyone
> about, with their fabricated documents and plagiarized "dossiers".

1. The DIA report speaks of "no evidence". It's pure speculation (or in your
words, a LIE, to conclude that therefore the administration had no other
intelligence whatsoever.

2. To put matters into perspective: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/08/resolution.text/

You make it seem like the Bush administration has been alone on this matter
but AFAIK every member of the UNSC agreed that Iraq had constantly been in
violation of several related resolutions for the past decade in November.

I assume those countries (such as France, Syria, China, Russia) have done
their own research and intelligence? If not, the UN *is* pointless, by the
way.

So we have a country, still on probation after its invasion of Kuwait,
breaking rules continuously. And despite the explicit military warning in
1441, that country and its regime were not cooperating, according to Blix.

I should now speculate Blix actually found WMD and assisted in hiding them
to make the US look bad and prevent the truth about France's role in all
this to be disclosed and then reply to the rest of your mail by quoting
myself with "[...]" added. But I won't.

By the way, even if or when the Bush administration lied on the WMD issue, I
would have supported a war to get rid of Hussein. He should've been dealt
with in '91.

> > It might look impressive that you find so many articles on the points you
> > want to prove, but it's often little more than parroting other sources.
> > Which we all do, sure. Which is why to me, personal experiences make more
> > lasting impressions, such as these two:
> > 
> > http://the-amazing.us/simplyamerican/1195/
> > 
> > http://the-amazing.us/simplyamerican/french_anti_americanism/
> 
> What has that to do with me?  The anti-Americanism is due to Bush, not me.  I am
> the one that was opposed to Bush; if it were up to me the world would not be
> hating the US now.  You certainly don't think my posts to kde-cafe are shaping
> world opinion, do you?  In fact I'd be happy to have those people making those
> quotes read my posts so they can see not all Americans are flag-waving Bush
> ass-kissers.

It has to do with you because you are discussing with me.

> It is very sad that people blame the American people instead of the government,
> but when you read the fascist views spewed by people like Messrs. Stevens and
> Powell, and when they see what the mainstream US press writes, who can blame
> them?

I can, because it's hypocrisy as they also read the numerous reports of
demonstrations, they constantly raise the popular vote of the 2000
elections.. they blame the people instead of the government, while at the
same time saying the government doesn't represent the people.

> The US is rapidly becoming a fascist country that is a fundamental threat
> to world security, stability and peace, a greater threat than Germany was in the
> early 1930s, and you, curiously, worship this "beast".  That says more about you
> than about the confused people you quote in your blog; people like you is what
> shapes the attitudes revealed in those quotes, and if you would stop being an
> Empire-lover and actually make America the great country it is meant to be then
> I am sure those attitudes will quickly dissipate.

I don't love the Empire. I love the country and its people. I have always
found it to be very comfortable to be amongst Americans. I like the culture.

Just because I supported the Bush administration on the war on Iraq and am
skeptic against a lot of criticism doesn't mean I support anything that
comes out of the government.

Santorum? Not my kind of guy. PATRIOT? Not my kind of law. UCITA? Bleh.

I don't worship any "beast". If you noticed, there are many things you
bring up I don't respond to, simply because I have nothing to say. I don't
have a need or desire to defend an administration I worship - because it's
not true.

And that my signs of affection create a kind of behavior: I myself have no
problems with Turks in the city circling our main square with fountain,
honking their cars until 3am, with Turkish flags.. because Galatasaray won a
football match. I don't take it out on them or Turkish people in general
when their government does something I disagree with.

> To tell the truth, your pro-Americanism makes even me uncomfortable.  I am
> quite sure if I were flying French flags in my neighborhood it would not
> last long either - and a Chinese flag or so and who knows what would
> happen, I would not rule out violence.  There is even a story I am aware
> of in Washington where a woman who was peacefully holding a sign that said
> "God Says Thou Shalt Not Kill" during a protest was threatened and
> insulted by many people and eventually assaulted by the police.

And that says something about that woman or those who assaulted her?

Yes, I'm an open book. My poetry is on-line, I wear the weirdest pangas to
support my favorite teams.. I don't hide my affections. If that pisses other
people off, well, than I can only conclude they are less tolerant than me.

> As I noted, many people in the world are afraid of the US.  Fear breeds
> intolerance - witness Mr. Powell.  It is important to get rid of fear, and if
> the US were not so busy instilling fear in the rest of the world there would be
> much less hatred (a response to fear).

Well, if my ring tone spreads fear.. people are messed up beyond believe.
You won't see me grow all intolerant when half of the local market is filled
with immigrants and foreign music. Actually, there's some great food to be
had there.

Apparently my affection for America makes you "uncomfortable".

But North Korean missile tests and sending home the IAEA doesn't.

Baath checks sent to Hamas and sending home the IAEA, or rejecting to
cooperate when they are there due to the threat of force, don't.

> > Try living in Europe for a while and notice how anything American will be
> > trashed by the hypocrites who eat at McDonald's and wear Nike shoes and
> > jeans and listen to Britney Spears' soundtrack for a Hollywood movie.
> 
> When I was in Europe last August I did not notice that; I hope to come to Europe
> again this August and I will be interested to note the difference.  As an
> "ambassador" from the US, though, I will let people know that there are many
> dissidents who despise Bush as much as they do, and also warn them about the
> dictatorship surreptitiously being established in the EU as we speak (this being
> the new EU presidency who will not be elected by the people but will have
> tremendous powers).

Most EU elections are already vague and fuzzy at best, I can't even vote for
a candidate from a different state in elections for the centralized powers
in Brussels.

> > Apparently I can't hang an American flag from my balcony without it being
> > stolen (true story). Or wear what I want without insults (many true
> > stories).
> 
> This is all bad but compared to what the Iraqis have had to go through the last
> few months, count yourself very lucky indeed.  Compared to the fear the Koreans,
> Syrians, Iranians, etc. have had to live under, compared to the hate and
> loathing spread by the demons Wolfowitz & co., who are trying to foment total
> war between Muslims and Christians (and hence the term demon is actually far too
> kind for those evil hatemongers), you have it well.  As you worship the demons,
> my sympathy is not great; if you were a true patriotic American and opposed the
> evil that is attacking us from within, I would certainly sympathize more but as
> I see it you are part of the problem, not the solution.

Is that all you can do, demonizing?

Yes, I'm lucky compared to what the Iraqis have had to go through the last
*twelve years*.

Would NK even be on the map if it didn't kick out the IAEA, reactivate
nuclear plants, launch test missiles into the sea of Japan (or actually over
Japan, in 1998) and violate air space to have a quarrel with the US? Yes, I
know Bush listed them in the "axis of evil". But do they have to go out of
their way to fit that categorization? Give me one sign North Korea is
actually trying to play nice.

> You drink tap water?

Yes.

> And I didn't bring it up, Neil with his typical closed-minded brought it
> up as a round-about way to insult me, similar who close-minded Mr. Powell
> brings up the "tin foil brigade" - why bother to reason when uninformed
> insults or so much more handy - and I simply pointed out what a
> closed-minded and uninformed person he is.  Currently fluoride, Prozac,
> etc. have been pushed far below the radar, fighting world fascism is my
> number one concern.

Please rephrase into "speculative world fascism by American sources". I
haven't heard you complain about Korea, the Baath party, the PLO.. all
sources of fascism with an effect on the world. You're far too focused
to make a credible claim of being impartial.

> > I sometimes consider setting my cell to vibrate in public
> > because my national anthem ringtone will get me in trouble in some parts of
> > town, or at least I won't take the risk after the continuous anti-American
> > insults I get just for seeing a lot of good things about the US and for
> > supporting the current administration on certain issues. But I don't.. I
> > didn't pick my signature because it's catchy, I believe in it.
> 
> IT's a great Franklin quote, perhaps you would be so kind as to share it with
> your hero Field Marshal Ashcroft, who clearly deservers "neither".

(John Ashcroft never called himself Field Marshal, nor stated that is how he
prefers to be called, unlike Saddam Hussein, which is why that name has been
adopted on SA.)

John Ashcroft is not my hero. There have been exactly three articles on him
on my site, two by Neil and the one where I have been involved is actually a
critical note.

http://the-amazing.us/simplyamerican/breaking_the_fourth/

(http://the-amazing.us/simplyamerican/search.html?q=ashcroft)

The fact that you somehow turned him into my hero shows your creative,
and speculative writing skills. When you adopted the policy of calling
everyone on this list or in the US government a LIAR, did you practice in
the mirror?

> > The looks on people's faces when it goes off in the train say enough. God
> > forbid it will go off in the nighttime with just a few drunken losers on the
> > street. People have been hassled for less.
> 
> Try playing the French national anthem in Missouri - wait, they wouldn't know
> what it was :-((.

I'll take that challenge once I get there, I believe I have an outstanding
invitation for St. Louis.

> > And it's funny how the same people who have been pointing at all the
> > demonstrations in the US (carefully moderated on CNN, where I've only seen a
> > dozen or so reported (sarcasm)) on American, British, German, Dutch, French,
> > Belgian, Turkish, Spanish and Italian TV (I sure get variety) are still
> > maintaining all Americans are evil, greedy capitalists. The traditional
> > argument that people on the right have no heart. My dad's girlfriend refuses
> > to open up to the possibility that even a single Republican could seriously
> > try to better the world and work for the good of the people.
> 
> I don't have much regard for the Republicans.  Now that they have complete
> control of the federal government, I am actually happy, b/c they can't blame the
> Democrats for the situation anymore.  And currently it is worse than it has ever
> been before, spending, deficits, deception, corruption, scandals, war,
> oppression, loss of civil liberties, worship of the elite, etc.  The US
> government is the worst it has ever been, and the Republicans are fully
> responsible now.

Right, Republicans have been in a very vulnerable spot since they had
control of all three branches. So they will be swept out of the office in
2004, unless on the whole, they've done more good than evil.

I don't believe Republicans are worse than Democrats, or Libertarians, or
Greens.. or whomever. I've seen far too many scandals in left-wing parties
and self-enrichment of political leaders on the left to believe there is any
difference there.

> > This deep-rooted hatred I see around me all the time opened my eyes. I
> > always leaned towards the Democrats until I gave Bush a chance. I started
> > out joking "wow, six months and he barely dissapointed me" which turned out
> > into a serious "wow, one year and he barely dissapointed me". I still would
> > have a hard time voting Republican (if I had voting rights in the US)
> > because they are too strict on personal freedom (thankfully I found out
> > about the LP).. but at least I'm willing to hear them out - and they make
> > sense on stuff.
> >
> > Maybe you're just pissed that many Democrats also supported the war
> > (http://the-amazing.us/simplyamerican/democrats_on_iraq/) and concluded that
> > when D and R agree, there must be some sort of conspiracy.
> 
> If you think I like Democrats it only shows that you live in some pathetic world
> in which only two opinions exist.  The Rothschilds infiltrated the Democratic
> Party in the 1910s and Woordow Wilson, who plunged this country needlessly into
> WW I, was the fruit of their efforts.  The Republican Party is plainly a party
> of the elite ("Big Business" as they say in the US), with a few policies
> (anti-abortion, school prayer, etc.) thrown in so they can get the clueless
> Christians along for the whole ticket.

No, I don't think you like Democrats. I just think you dislike people who support political
views you disagree with. I suppose the Rothschilds infiltrated all of us..

> But if you ask me about the Republican Platform now, I have no idea what
> it is.  Ruin the country is my best guess.  Why they do it, I don't know,
> but the obvious idiocy of people like DeLay aside, I don't think it's
> inadvertent.

Pick one: it's a fascist conspiracy, or you don't know what it is. You can't
have it both ways.

> > To me, it's a plausible option. It's not too important to me, as I think
> > Saddam Hussein's public moral and financial support for terrorism ranks a
> > bit higher on my list, but each to his own.
> 
> If Bush told you the moon was made of cheese, you would believe it.  It is
> becoming glaringly obvious they lied about the whole WMD thing.  The
> intelligence reports did not contain what they claimed, and even those reports
> were arrived at after substantial pressure was placed on the intelligence
> communties to over-represent the threat.

Are you implying my position on the war in Iraq is solely based on Bush
telling me about WMD, despite the fact that I have always said there were
several other reasons that made me come to that position?

> DO you think these idiots like Rumsfeld have some crystal ball that they
> know more about Iraq than you or I do?  No, they don't, they are not even
> as smart as we are, certainly Bush isn't.  All they have is the
> intelligence reports, and as those are being leaked now, it is clear as
> day that everyone was deceived.  That you continue to cling to the lies is
> your psychosis, my advice is, get over it.
>
> One day Rumsfeld says "They took it to Syria", the next "they destroyed
> it", the next "I'm sure we will find it".  One lie after another, and you
> believe each one.  Fantastic.

No, I'm leaving each one of them open as a possibility I can't dismiss, for
the exact reason that I don't know more or less than you or Rumsfeld. There
are many unanswered questions. Just because I am not necessarily buying your
answers doesn't mean I "cling to lies".

And please find me the sources from which you concluded I believe that the
weapons will be found, in a destroyed state, in Syria. They're options I can
rule out, so I'll raise them, but that doesn't mean I believe each one to be
true , let alone in parallel.

> > And talking about implausible things: Arafat, who spoke the words "there
> > shall be no peace as Israel lives" got the Nobel price for peace. Many
> > things are wrong in the world and not necessarily the things you think of.
> > 
> > A local friend of mine already smirked at the (again!) failing Middle East
> > peace talks (Arafat and the Hamas both denounced it (again, see Oslo
> > accords) before even talking to Abbas) implying on his blog he would like
> > peace in the M-E, but he would have a larger dislike for Bush getting credit
> > for it. Screw peace, we can't possibly have Dubya in the history books.
> 
> Hammas is created / controlled by Israel, the Knesset already destroyed
> the Road Map (which is already heavily stacked against the Palestinians),
> and Arafat is largely irrelevant.  If Israel were serious about not giving
> in to terrorits, and since Hammas claims it wants the Road Map to fail,
> then Israel's reaction should be to ensure the Road Map succeeds,
> otherwise they are giving in to terrorism.

How can the road map succeed? Withdraw from territories fairly won in 1967
without any cooperation of the Palestinians? Israel has to comply fully,
while Palestinians don't have to, because one Palestinian group threatens to
make it fail. How would that *not* be giving in to terrorism?

> > Maybe this explains why I am so skeptical of criticism on the Bush
> > administration and American values. There seems to be at least as much
> > bullshit, hypocrisy and pure hatred in them than in politics, and in my
> > experience, a lot more.
> 
> I don't see that.  Everyone I know that opposes the Bush Administration wants
> peace in the Middle East, however, the powerful forces (Mossad / Likkud /
> Rothschilds) do not, and so it won't happen, regardless of what the Palestinians
> want, at least so long as they are not content to just die or go away some other
> way.  The goal is a "Greater Israel", and I can send around in the next few days
> more information about this, as I have been writing it up.  It also gets into
> the probable Mossad control of Hammas, but to prepare yourself for that you
> might take note of the interesting fact that *Sharon* helped form Hammas. That's
> right, look it up and weep; for convenience I can give you one link,
> http://www.counterpunch.org/hanania01182003.html (wow, sounds familiar, just
> like Bush Sr. helped form Al Qaeda, gee, what a coincidence).

By the same logic, Matthias Ettrich is a TLC-funded Nazi-inspired
Rothschild-placed world fascist out to benefit the American elite and
Zionists because some of the current KDE developers support the Bush
administration.

Meanwhile organizations like the AEL don't show up on your radar. May  I ask
why not? Why aren't you concerned with Arabs trying to take over Europe,
openly denying the existance of a Zionist entity, openly hoping to reform
the laws of the countries.. officially not into Sharia law, but I bet you
they certainly won't call for any kind of personal freedom.

If world fascism is your main concern, you might want to shift your focus,
or at least broaden it.

http://the-amazing.us/simplyamerican/search.html?q=ael

(there would be more on the AEL if 1) they'd respond to my inqueries or 2)
it'd be on-topic for SA.. which it might be, as they do run an anti-American
platform in the country of one of its writers)

Sorry for the late reply, had a busy weekend with friends and family.

Rob
-- 
Rob Kaper     | "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
[email protected] | temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
www.capsi.com | - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

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