Re: Mars in their eyes

On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 01:08:15PM -0500, Andreas Pour wrote:
> Sure, but everyone has to find their own truth.  I hope to tear myths
> asunder and expose lies to make the more general point that, reality is
> not what the politicians and other "leaders" tell you it is.  Leaders lie
> and manipulate, always have, always will, whether intentionally, which is
> often enough the case, or b/c they are blinded (as everyone is) by their
> own ideology and prejudices.
> 
> Thus, while democracy requires people to open their eyes and learn the
> truth, to question authority, to think critically, to evaluate things for
> themselves, democracy is a *process*, not an end in itself.

Agreed, and I believe this list is not void of critical thinking, so hurray.

> In Britain even more is coming out, as there it appears there may be an inkling
> of democracy (as opposed to the US where the Republicans in Congress can do
> precious little but kiss ass and the Democrats, controlled by the same forces,
> do the same), and the reports on the dossiers and smear campaigns are so
> ubiquitous (and admitted by the participants) that it is hard to see how Blair
> will survive - yet despite that he still cannot find any evidence in
> intelligence reports to back up his lies.  That is what I am getting at.

Blair will make the sama paragraph as Bush and that fate is sealed with the
fate of Iraq and the Middle East now. Bush knows that if he does bring
balance, peace and freedom there (which noone will deny there wasn't much
of) he'll have freed the slaves much like Abe. Nobody still talks on how
South Carolina and the rest of the South were invaded and conquered after
its secession.

Slightly different, but the same thing might happen to Bush. Just a thought.

[snipped a lot to save time]

> > By the way, even if or when the Bush administration lied on the WMD issue, I
> > would have supported a war to get rid of Hussein. He should've been dealt
> > with in '91.
> 
> Fine, you are an unapologetic imperialist.  What you should remember, though, is
> that the Bush Crime Family supported Hussein for years, in many ways that aren't
> even so much in the public record that you probably don't even know about them,
> but there are many good books on the topic.  So if that is true, what makes you
> think any successor will be better?

My esteem of Saddam Hussein is low enough to take that chance. There was
never a guarantee Europe would not fall back in to anti-semitism after WWII.
Moving the Jews out of there might have helped and the Cold War was a
convenient distraction, but you don't know how history unfolds.

I just believe that Iraq and the world will be better off without Saddam
Hussein and his friends. Of which the details will be shaped by the focus
and distractions that will occur - none of which can be predicted.

> Here's a though:  have a look at life in Afghanistan today, and, if you have any
> objectivity at all, you will see that it has substantially worsened from life
> under the Taliban, and that would be so, even if not for the depleted uranium
> genocide.

We both haven't had a look in Afghanistan, nor a first-hand experience of
life under the Taliban, so this cannot be tested objectively by either of
us.

I'm working form a frame of reference and subjective information, so do you,
so does anyone on this list.

> > I don't love the Empire. I love the country and its people. I have always
> > found it to be very comfortable to be amongst Americans. I like the culture.
> 
> Me too, esp. in New York and San Francisco :-).  But, playing the US national
> anthem on a cellphone in Europe - you can't blame someone for misinterpreting
> that as support of the US government, even if you are making a more profound
> point as to support of the fundamental ideals on which the US is based (and
> which the current administration continuously violates and destroys).

My political support of the government or people's perception of it is irrelevant.
They don't justify all insults and violence against me or my property.

> I suppose if, as is unfortunatley not unlikely at this juncture, the US and
> Europe go to war in the next decade or so, if you continue to fly a US flag you
> will probably receive even more negative attention - and I suppose if I were to
> fly a European flag at that time the same would happen to me.

I doubt Europe can have a significant army force within a decade, but that's
besides the point..

And I don't see that war happen anyway.
 
> > Apparently my affection for America makes you "uncomfortable".
> 
> Actually, in your case it seems more like an obsession (no offense intended),
> and obsessions generally make me uncomfortable.

No offense taken, I know it's not true. Started a personal blog because I
realized there was much more I wanted to write about than Americana, after
all.

> > But North Korean missile tests and sending home the IAEA doesn't.
> 
> Where have I ever said, or implied, this?

You haven't, which made me believe you're too focused to point out one
thing, but you already clarified that.

> Right.  The new EU presidency is a new and greater threat to European democracy,
> and I hope all freedom-loving Europeans spend more time worrying about that than
> they do about the US election falsification in 2000.

I'm sorry, they don't. By now, they probably know more about the US election
process than their own. And I wish I wasn't kidding.

> This thread is too long already . . . maybe we can start a separate N. Korea
> thread at some point.

At some point, something will probably happen so we will.

> I focus on my backyard, yes, and if everyone would focus on criticizing
> and improving their own country instead of others', the world would be
> better.

That sounds like isolation. Many people have refused that as an option after
Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

> That aside, Korea is another thread, the Ba'ath Party was terrible but of
> limited threat beyond its borders, the PLO is of no real threat beyond its
> borders, and I would not call any of the three fascist (though, each is
> undemocratic in its own way).

If only it were so simple.. whether it's trough conspiracies, trade, ideals
or whatever, the world is interconnected at an insane amount of hubs (we'll
call those humans). It would be an awesome (not to mention privacy-killing)
exeriment to calculate the center and MSD leaders of that keyring.

> This last one I would update, and say, if the American Constitution should fail
> and fascism take root in the US, there will be fascism throughout the world. 
> The same does not hold for Korea, or the PLO, or the Ba'ath Party.

By the same analogy, if the Constitution would succeed and the US can take
every opportunity within its legal limits to shape the world after it..

> My apologies, I was being overly polemical; but the polemics are derived from
> what I see as your support of the Bush Administration.

On some issues, yes, and some more than others. And others, not at all. :)

> Now you are getting way beyond the point of reasonableness (and skimming ahead
> it gets far worse) . . . and since this e-mail is far too long already I'll take
> that as a convenient cue to stop here :-).

Boo! ;)

(you're right, it's getting too long)

Rob
-- 
Rob Kaper     | "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
[email protected] | temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
www.capsi.com | - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

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