Re: Evangelical Christianity Wrongly Maligned (was Re: Chavez Likes Euro?)

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The overall theme you are going to see is that on non-essentials, that is 
stuff like end times issues, Evangelicals differ very much.

  The catch phrase is "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, charity. In 
all things, Christ." 

  Saying "Evangelicals" hold racist views and are strongly zionist is like 
saying "Americans are very racist"... it just isn't that black and white. And 
virtually no actual Evangelicals hold racist views... most that do only cloak 
themselves in Evangelicism.

> So where do you get the info on the various denominations and how many
> belong to each?  Perhaps you can focus on the views of such "leaders" as
> Falwell, Graham, Robertson and ilk.  See e.g.
> http://www.j-cinstitute.org/Articles/Blewett_Antichrist.htm ;
> http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020308/comm1.shtml .

  Many evangelicals are rather suspicious of the self appointed "leaders." 
Graham is one of the few that is respected by most evangelicals, but still 
not all. I personally like him.

  Now, as far as Graham's anti-semetic comments, I think his apology was 
sincere. Look at it this way: things have changed a lot in the last 30 
years... the Graham of today isn't the Graham of the early 70's, he's had 
time to reflect and improve his views. But above all, it emphasizes that 
Christians aren't, and should never claim to be, perfect... just like 
everyone else.

> I think you are wrong here; you might disagree with mainstream Evangelicism
> but I would be happy to see what the movement "leaders" have to say about
> it, rather than you :-).  You might find this commentary interesting:
> http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020308/comm1.shtml .

  Falwell isn't the one you should be basing your opinion of Evangelicals on 
(at any rate, before I move on, let me mention that most Evangelicals are 
mostly adamently independent beyond anything else, so don't assume you can 
offer a blanket statement about them other than being those who insist on the 
accuracy of the Bible).

  At any rate, suggesting that the anti-Christ will be a Jew is hardly an 
attack on Jews. If I say "one of the great serial murderers of our time will 
be American," that doesn't mean if I was German I wouldn't trust Americans 
anymore. 

  Dr. Tim LaHaye ("Left Behind" co-author) has FAR more influence on 
evangelical understanding of end times prophecy and his particular theory 
suggests a mediterranian european anti-Christ (i.e. from "Rome," though not 
necessarily literally). 

  Then again, many don't take the anti-Christ literally at all, including well 
known Christian commentator R.C. Sproul, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod 
(LCMS, the most Evangelical major Lutheran denomination), most 
Presbyterians/Reformed/Calvinists, etc. 

   In other words, prophecy isn't really a thing that is interpreted in a 
"standard" way across the board.

> Dispensationalism has to do with a 7-period (dispensations) history, of
> which we are in the 6th period (the church age, or the dispensation of
> grace), so I don't understand what you are talking about.  

  Many (most?) of the above interpretation of Revelation comes from those who 
adhear to dispensationalist ideology.

> My point was
> simply that creating the Greater Israel requires anti-Arabism.  I realize

  To which I again repeat that the most popular theory doesn't talk about 
creating some kind of Greater Israel. At most, it might talk about 
restoration of Jerusalem and traditional Israelite boarders, but not some 
kind of massive middle eastern state per the popular understanding of Greater 
Israel provided by UBL, etc.

> Now the way I understand modern dispensationalism is that it is akin to
> pre-tribulation premillennialism, 

  Right.

> or the idea that Jews will suffer during
> the Great Tribulation, whereas beforehand the Christians (including the
> dead ones) will be miraculously lifted to Heaven in what is deemed the
> "Rapture".  The Jews (and the Muslims), not being true Christians, will
> suffer the annihilation of the Great Tribulation.

  Not just Jews and Muslims... "Christians" who just pretend to be Christian 
by going through the motions and everyone else too. The whole idea around the 
Tribulation and Great Tribulation (last 3 1/2 years) is concerned with a 
"final wakeup call" to those who have denied God, not some kind of 
punishment.

  Once the lines are drawn, the Great Tribulation could be termed more of a 
cosmic battle between Good and Evil, not in and of itself punishment for 
those who mistakenly take the side of Evil.

   Again, I emphasize this isn't the belief of all of Evangelical 
Christianity. And, for that matter, isn't limited to Evangelical 
Christianity. While that's up for debate, some suggest dispensationalism 
actually originated from a Catholic.

  (While I'm at it, I feel I may be walking into another argument here, so let 
me emphasize that Evangelicals don't believe non-Evangelicals aren't 
Christian. Generally Orthodox and Catholics are also considered Christian, 
even though they aren't Evangelical... the only ones looked on suspiciously 
are the mainline protestant denominations that reject traditional doctrine).


> It all boils down to the view that only "Christians" are saved.  Why don't
> you ask some Jews if they think that is racist or not, eh?

  Better yet, go talk to some devout Orthodox Jews or Muslims: they won't go 
for a "many roads lead to God" view either, they will have a remarkably 
similar view to Christianity. This is often overlooked, Muslims and Jews 
aren't all liberals who believe every road leads to God, in fact, that 
philosophy attacks the core of the Ethical Monotheistic/Abrahamic religions.

  In the end it all comes down to belief in Absolute Truth. I believe there is 
Truth that simply is True and isn't "just as true" as something else, but is 
the only Truth. I believe this fits into a universe where some things can't 
be true and false at the same time. I can't be here and not here at the same 
time. 

  It is a very eastern idea that "all roads lead to God." In fact, that fits 
very nicely with Hinduism. That's fine, but I don't think its fair to expect 
the Monotheistic religions (and in particular, Christianity) to take that 
view just so it doesn't offend anyone. 

  Big question: if you feel this is racist, why not accuse all Orthodox Jews, 
Muslims, Mormons, etc., as racist? It bothers me that often Christians are 
targeted for attacks when this isn't unique to Christianity. It bothers me 
more that often it is presented as if those other religions *don't* feel this 
way.

> I have heard plenty of people who want Armageddon to happen, even on the
> Sunday-morning religious shows on TV where they gloat about the progress to
> Armageddon, so that kind of insanity is quite prevalent.  There is even an

  That again shows you aren't in touch with the real Evangelical movement. 
Many (most?) Evangelicals look on televangelists very suspiciously. And don't 
go to Trinity Broadcasting Network to get the Evangelical pulse, it is widely 
agreed within Evangelical circles that TBN holds many dangerous, even 
heretical views.

> As to the racial issue, I suppose it is only by some co-incidence that
> these Caucasians believe that only "true Christians" will be saved, and as
> it happens the vast majority of those "true Christians" happen to be
> Caucasian, so only the "heretic" Jews, Arabs, Asians, etc. will be
> annihilated, or what do you mean?

  Sure, that is what some believe. In reality, Christians don't come in one or 
two races. There are very large Evangelical movements in Asia, Africa, etc., 
as well as Europe and the Unitd States. Indeed, some of the healthiest 
Evangelical movements aren't in the traditional regions of Christianity. 
Recently Asian churches announced they would be sending missionaries to the 
United States.

> >   This is the interesting significance of the "Good Samaritan" parable
> > that is often lost.
>
> As I noted, there are many nuances in the various sects and what-not, and
> some are more extreme than others . . . .

  I might have missed your point there. I was referring to the fact that Jesus 
was emphasizing that the Jewish Priest and Levite left the Jewish man to die 
but the Samaritan did what was right. In other words, everyone is our 
neighbor, not just people we like or have certain beliefs: we should love 
everyone.

   And that's exactly what Evangelical Christianity would like to do even if 
it fails sometimes. It is not impossible to love someone and still believe 
they are seriously misguided. 

   -Tim

- -- 
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Timothy R. Butler       Universal Networks      www.uninet.info
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