Re: Neil's Newsforge article

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> Changing the website in the way it was done inconveniences users. Adding a
> credit that has to be specifically clicked towards does not, in any way,
> hinder accessibility of the KDE project.

  I would agree it might not have been the best way of doing things if the 
site was completely down (was it?). Normally one might have a "splash page" 
for something like this before going into the normal page.  

  I would still insist the two issues are quite different, though. One is on 
the web site of the project, one is in the application. If a business buys a 
copy of SuSE, they will never run into a political message that is placed 
only on the web site unless they decide to read more about KDE on the net. 
However, a message included in the application is a message that they get on 
every computer.

 
> I agree that KDE should refrain from politics, including protests against
> software patents. There are better places to protest against those than
> obfuscating existing project infrastructure such as the www.kde.org
> website.

  Well KDE has been protesting patents for as long as I can remember. I think 
that's good. Pretty much everyone can agree that more countries supporting 
software patents could hurt KDE, not everyone agrees the U.S. Army helps KDE 
(one is a lot more direct in its relation to the success of the project). 

> If it turns out the Iranian government hinders KDE development in that
> country, can we expect the same kind of boycotts? How many developers and
> potentials must be affected by politics before a statement in the project
> is warranted?

  The problem is, how directly does Iranian policy relate to KDE? We can't 
simply say, okay, 100 would-be KDE developers are not KDE developers because 
of Iranian policy. We can say, if software patents continue to grow as they 
have been, it is quite likely that it will become increasingly challenging to 
develop Free Software. 

> The "this affects KDE directly" argument is a very subjective one. In the
> end, most of us probably own a credit to our countries including the
> people, culture and governments in it.

  Sure. I suspect crediting the people and government of the United States 
would have been less controversial than crediting the Army. 

  Consider this example:

  "Finally, I would like to thank my fellow Americans."

  That probably would bring a lot less problems... Of course, another issue is 
Neil's intentions themselves, based on his comments on the subject, it looks 
like he intended this as flamebait. If it was intended as flamebait, it 
should have been removed without thought, whereas the software patents thing 
was not meant as flamebait (clearly).

> And because most people seem to want to tie the comment to current events:
> what if an Iraqi developer would join the project in the future, an
> opportunity that he probably would not ever have had with Saddam in control
> of the national firewall? Would he be allowed to credit the US army?

  I would think he could. But I think credits wer always intended for people 
and companies making a direct contribution. I wouldn't, for example, thank 
the American Revolutionaries that I was able to write a program today without 
being under the thumb of the Queen of England. ;-) Of course, the 
hypothetical Iraqi would have more directly been influenced by the US Army 
than I am the American militia from the late 1700's.

  But in that case, it wouldn't be politics, it would be something 
practical... "because of these people, I'm writing this." If I thank the US 
Army, it is only in theory that they are insuring I can write this. While 
indeed without the US Army things might be very different, you are talking 
very much theory here and it really doesn't determine much talking completely 
hypothetically.

> A policy of "politics that affect KDE directly" will be much harder to
> maintain than one of "no politics at all" or "whatever the maintainers of a
> certain part of KDE decide".

  I think a good rule would be whatever views are agreeable to the vast 
majority of the KDE developers and can be practically shown to have a 
profound impact on the development of KDE. European software patents fit this 
criteria. The US Army might, if one wants to link things back to WWII, but -- 
big but here -- we are once again moving back much more into theory than we 
are with software patents.

  At a glance, patents = yes, US Army = kinda sorta maybe. One is a lot more 
set in stone.

  -Tim

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy R. Butler       Universal Networks      www.uninet.info
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