Re: The <whatever> developer syndrome

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On Tuesday 07 October 2003 05:02, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> > make *my* experience fit *your* expectations. furthermore, my path (with
> > which you may disagree with) may end up leading to the exact destination
> > you are striving for (and vice versa).
> >
> > there is more than your one answer to the question of life.
>
> Remember, this isn't about having fun.  It is about doing things which are
> not fun.  Not fixing the bugs because it isn't fun is an armature attitude.

*sigh* ok, here's a revelation and a shocker for you: i find fixing bugs to be 
fun. no joke. that's probably why i tend to do more bug fixing than feature 
creating with what little time i have. if someone else doesn't find hunting 
down someone else's bug or some obscurity fun, then fine, i don't have a 
problem with that. there are others who do find and fix bugs, and with 
everyone working together it all pans out in the end.

i also know people who don't find bug hunting fun, but do so anyways within 
the KDE project because it opens the doorway to other things that they do 
find "fun", such as being able to watch users happily use the software, or 
making the software do new things.

i'd also suggest that when you confront someone they will put their back up 
and defend their position regardless of their actual actions. when a user 
whines, there are people who will whine right back with about as much 
accuracy as the whining user.

so please, stop telling me what is fun and how we're supposed to experience it 
all, because you have a very limited grasp on this topic in the context of 
Free Software and KDE in particular. 

> > actually, you failed to note the important part of the sentence that
> > outlines the intended definitions within this context: "regularly, openly
> > and without providing constructive, realistic solutions/thoughts". i
> > think that's pretty clear and definitive?
>
> As I said, to say that is to misunderstand what criticism is.  You are
> presuming that you statement is true.  But why should we assume that you
> are correct in your presumptuous claim that no constructive solution or
> thoughts are provided. 

because i've seen it many times from you? i've seen it from users as well who 
complain about things. conversely, i've seen you offer useful thoughts on 
occassion on things such as font handling in KDE, and i've met many a 
wonderful user. but your "KDE developers are lazy, unprofessional gits" 
argument grows tiresome. i've heard it more than once from you now, and it's 
baseless.

personally, i have real issues with other people passing sweeping, 
self-righteous judgements. doubly so when it reinforces a false position held 
by certain detractors.

> If you say that then you are saying that it isn't criticism.

"The act of criticising; a critical judgment passed or
      expressed; a critical observation or detailed examination
      and review; a critique; animadversion; censure."

the definition of the word does not presume accuracy, fairness or positivity. 
please don't bother arguing that the words i use in the context i use them 
are not what i mean them to be. 

> Engineers like to argue -- get used to it.  Call it a flame war if you
> want, but people should figure that if they start an argument with me that
> I will continue it.

 i've seen you jump into the middle of threads on kde devel lists that you had 
nothing to do with with extreme and unecessary attitude. you stir up shit 
even when it isn't your own. and to be frank, "i like to argue, get used it" 
is a pretty weak argument. you say that people should buck up and fix bugs, 
well how about you buck up and learn how to be civil on a mailing list?

> I remind you that what we are discussing is those that say that they don't
> fix bugs because it isn't fun.  I think that this is an unprofessional
> attitude.  The professional attitude being the willingness to do things
> which are not fun for the slightly delayed satisfaction of doing the job
> well.  

saying that people should therefore not do it for fun misses the point 
fundamentally.  namely: it's a collective effort, not an individual efort; 
people have different motivations; people have different ways of experiencing 
and expressing their experience and the motivations that drive them. we are 
not all the same, and Free Software leverages that fact while "engineering 
culture" as you propose it does not. and, btw, engineering as you describe it 
does not work so obviously well nor is it infallible as can be seen in the 
failures NASA, SUV tires, closed source software, etc, etc...

> This attitude is part of the culture of engineering.   

no, this attitude is your view of how the "culture of engineering", as defined 
in your mind, should be. as such, within yourself it is valid. externalized 
it may be, and in this case is, invalid.

> > i happen to know a lot of the people in Free Software, and KDE in
> > particular, who have fun doing what they do and manage to do a damn fine
> > (and professional) job of it _simultaneously_.
>
> In this context, this is a statement contrary to fact or an irrelevant
> statement since the user's complaint is that the bugs don't get fixed.

i also know a lot of features that don't get implemented. that's not because 
the developers are having too much fun, it's due to a general limit of 
man-power. 

note also that i didn't say every KDE developer is a prefect example which we 
should all follow as The Way To Write Code. at the same time, my statement is 
absolutely accurate when read with understanding of how Free Software works.

> > this makes me feel that while you may have a good grasp on what makes you
> > tick, you don't have an equal grasp on what makes others tick. which is
> > fine with me, so long as you don't go pointing your misaligned
> > personality crucible anywhere in my general direction.
>
> It isn't just my take on this -- I don't think that I originated this 
> thought

two people getting it horribly wrong makes it right? pfffffft.

>  -- what I think makes some of the developers tick is that they lack
> the self discipline to fix the bugs, because it isn't fun.  They would
> rather go on to additional new features because that is fun.  To me, this
> attitude is lacking in something.

that's because you don't understand that this is a hive project. keep pointing 
out individual's flaws and failures and you'll keep missing the point.

> > on the flip side, perhaps this is not what you mean to get across at all.
> > perhaps you are trying to say something profound and profoundly different
> > than what i'm hearing. in which case trying to communicate it differently
> > would be helpful, because i think it's fairly evident that if everyone is
> > misunderstanding you, that your current choice of words simply isn't
> > working for you. i'm not sure i am misunderstanding you, however.
>
> I think that to fully understand the point, you need to think outside of
> the box.  Or, at least stop defending the status quo long enough to try to
> examine it objectively.

thank you for not providing a single new thought, or restating your position 
to make it any clearer. i can only conclude that i do understand what you are 
trying to say, which leads me to be ever more comfortable with saying 
outright that it's complete rubbish.

- -- 
Aaron J. Seigo
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43
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