Re: The <whatever> developer syndrome

Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
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> On Tuesday 07 October 2003 05:02, James Richard Tyrer wrote:

>>Remember, this isn't about having fun.  It is about doing things which are
>>not fun.  Not fixing the bugs because it isn't fun is an armature attitude.
> 
> 
> *sigh* ok, here's a revelation and a shocker for you: i find fixing bugs to be 
> fun. no joke.

I wouldn't use the word "fun" but I am glad to hear that you derive 
enjoyment from it.

> i'd also suggest that when you confront someone they will put their back up 
> and defend their position regardless of their actual actions. when a user 
> whines, there are people who will whine right back with about as much 
> accuracy as the whining user.

I am not a "whining user".  You must have confused me with others that 
actually are whining users.  Just because I agreed with some of what a 
whining user said, doesn't make me one.

> so please, stop telling me what is fun and how we're supposed to experience it 
> all, because you have a very limited grasp on this topic in the context of 
> Free Software and KDE in particular. 
> 
I am not doing that.  I did not make the statement that the bugs don't get 
fixed because developing more features is more fun.  Someone else said 
that.  I think that it was a developer defending their actions.
> 
>>>actually, you failed to note the important part of the sentence that
>>>outlines the intended definitions within this context: "regularly, openly
>>>and without providing constructive, realistic solutions/thoughts". i
>>>think that's pretty clear and definitive?
>>
>>As I said, to say that is to misunderstand what criticism is.  You are
>>presuming that you statement is true.  But why should we assume that you
>>are correct in your presumptuous claim that no constructive solution or
>>thoughts are provided. 
> 
> 
> because i've seen it many times from you? i've seen it from users as well who 
> complain about things. conversely, i've seen you offer useful thoughts on 
> occassion on things such as font handling in KDE, and i've met many a 
> wonderful user. but your "KDE developers are lazy, unprofessional gits" 
> argument grows tiresome. i've heard it more than once from you now, and it's 
> baseless.
> 
> personally, i have real issues with other people passing sweeping, 
> self-righteous judgements. doubly so when it reinforces a false position held 
> by certain detractors.
> 
> 
>>If you say that then you are saying that it isn't criticism.
> 
> 
> "The act of criticising; a critical judgment passed or
>       expressed; a critical observation or detailed examination
>       and review; a critique; animadversion; censure."
> 
> the definition of the word does not presume accuracy, fairness or positivity. 
> please don't bother arguing that the words i use in the context i use them 
> are not what i mean them to be. 
> 
> 
>>Engineers like to argue -- get used to it.  Call it a flame war if you
>>want, but people should figure that if they start an argument with me that
>>I will continue it.
> 
Ah yes, the "Humpty Dumpty" theory of semantics (Lewis Carol):

	When I use a word, it means exactly what I intend it to mean.

> btw, engineering as you describe it 
> does not work so obviously well nor is it infallible as can be seen in the 
> failures NASA, SUV tires, closed source software, etc, etc...
> 
Well lets see:

NASA:
	Twice the NASA management refused to listen to the engineers and
	twice they lost a Shuttle as a result.

SUV tires:
	This was a manufacturing defect.  The bonding agent was not properly
	applied between the layers of the tire.

Close Source Software:
	Well you must mean MicroSoft software because there is a lot of
	very good commercial software out there.  The problem at MicroSoft
	is the "hacker culture".  Bill Gates was a self taught hacker and 	
	that is how the company was organized for many years.

>>This attitude is part of the culture of engineering.   
> 
> no, this attitude is your view of how the "culture of engineering", as defined 
> in your mind, should be. as such, within yourself it is valid. externalized 
> it may be, and in this case is, invalid.
> 
You are going to have to explain that.  I don't think that you understand 
what I was talking about.

The attitude which I an talking about is taking pride in doing a job well, 
deriving satisfaction (perhaps even enjoyment) from that even if doing the 
job wasn't fun.

> i also know a lot of features that don't get implemented. that's not because 
> the developers are having too much fun, it's due to a general limit of 
> man-power. 
> 
> note also that i didn't say every KDE developer is a prefect example which we 
> should all follow as The Way To Write Code. at the same time, my statement is 
> absolutely accurate when read with understanding of how Free Software works.
>
You ramble on about non-relevant things.  But, what does it have to do with 
the point?  The point was about the fact that bugs don't get fixed.
> 
<SNIP>

>> -- what I think makes some of the developers tick is that they lack
>>the self discipline to fix the bugs, because it isn't fun.  They would
>>rather go on to additional new features because that is fun.  To me, this
>>attitude is lacking in something.
> 
> that's because you don't understand that this is a hive project. keep pointing 
> out individual's flaws and failures and you'll keep missing the point.
>
Please don't take that seriously.  I was just extrapolating from things 
some of the developers or the defenders of the developers said -- 
extrapolating it to an absurd extreme
> 
<SNIP>

> thank you for not providing a single new thought, or restating your position 
> to make it any clearer. i can only conclude that i do understand what you are 
> trying to say, which leads me to be ever more comfortable with saying 
> outright that it's complete rubbish.

There is little point as long as you continue to engage in a run on defense 
of things.  I suggest that you please look at the various things which I 
said and see if you can make a summary based on the assumption that I was 
making constructive statements -- that you do this rather than make more 
presumptuous defenses against things which I didn't say.

--
JRT


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