Re: KDE/ QT/ Plasma accessibility contributions

Nice :-)

Cheers,
Shervin Emami.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:48 AM chrys <[email protected]> wrote:

> Howdy List,
>
> related to my mail
>
> - desktop icons
>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
>
> i just found the following:
>
> https://pointieststick.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/this-week-in-usability-productivity-part-40/
>
> Keyboard navigation once again works properly on the desktop
> <https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399566> (Eike Hein, KDE Plasma
> 5.14.1)
>
>
> it seems that the keyboard navigation on desktop is fixed again in KDE
> Plasma 5.14.1.
> that already wipes something from the list of todos 8-). Thanks Eike! ;).
>
> cheers chrys
>
> Am 14.10.18 um 21:41 schrieb chrys:
>
> Howdy Federik, Howdy List,
>
> Just use phabricator directly,
>
> ok i will do so.
>
> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did attempt
> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good
> progress
> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>
> That would be cool :). its very needed.
> I think the gnome world is doing some magic special style handling that
> orca seems to translate this into ATK_STATE_SELECTED state.
>
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/commit/7d44c666ff59c437d1e3b7111dc51460f5e33c95
>
>
> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost works, but
> for
> example misses some label, just to get started on something that will be
> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be a bit
> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build and
> work,
> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>
> agree. sadly this was a busy weekend. so i was just able to do some basic
> tests on KDE 5.14.
> Overall I think its good to prio the following elements:
> - Kicker
>     1. application overview: better navigation tab should switch between
> panels, arrowing should go to next element in _current_ panel (blind people
> dont see the visual barriers on the screen, so the keyboard need to respect
> them as well)
>     2. application overview: "apps and documentation" and "Miniprograms"
> don't have an label (maybe this is a good beginner task and example we want
> to do)
>     3. application starter: does not work with orca here (since it is the
> default mode, it would be good if it is accessible))
>     4. application starter: make "bookmark" section keyboard navigable
> - desktop icons
>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
>     2. Give them an a11y label
> - task switcher (even if it is more complicated - its an basic component
> to use an desktop)
>     1. make it able to speak
>
> because those components are the most basic for desktop to use it. if
> those are working out well. more users will follow to test (and even maybe
> more developers in that area). I would pin the list above (what is not
> already there) down to phabricator if you are fine with.
>
> more "advanced" stuff like tray area, workspace switcher and access to
> individual plasmoids should follow.
> For access to plasmodis i have an cool idea:
> Is there an way to focus an plasmoid via an API? I read about how to get
> all running plasmoids. maybe i can bake out an "plasmoid switcher" where
> you can focus any element on your desktop via an hierarchic menu (maybe
> with some additional information).
> like this:
> pressing an shortcut opens an menu (what represents the containers on the
> desktop) and an search box. if you open an menu entry you get all "child"
> plasmoids. so plasmoids what are embedded int the container):
> [search] (type ahead search for plasmoids)
> [Bottom Panel] -> submenu{kicker, window switcher,workspace switcher, Tray
> -> {TrayIcon1, TrayIcon2}} (whatever is on Top Panel)
> [Top Panel] -> submenu{Clock(12:00 AM), Volume(60 %), Network(WIFI: <SSID>
> signal 50%)}
> [Desktop] -> submenu{Weather(Cloudy, 12 degrees), Clock(12:00 AM).....
> }(what ever is o desktop)
>
> pressing enter will focus the selected element. maybe its even useful for
> non handicapped power uses users.
>
> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to get Orca
> working in general, that would be great!
>
> i can do this. i will register a blog as soon as i figured how (lol) and
> will write it down there.
> special for KDE users is very useful to know that there is an shortcut by
> default to start it ( in fact very awsome!, because it means starting the
> screenreader is just one keyboard stroke away).
>
> cheers chrys
>
> Am 14.10.18 um 10:26 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>
> Hi Chrys,
>
> It's awesome to have you on board, reading your mail makes me very happy
> :)
>
> On fredag 12. oktober 2018 16:06:10 CEST chrys wrote:
>
> Howdy Frederik,
>
> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
> is where you should be able to sign up.
>
> Yes, strike! :) worked for me. I registered and can login now.
>
> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the plasma
> mailing list as a first step.
>
> so should i do a more detailed list of keyboard navigation flaws/ needs
> for some basic stuff?should i sent all that stuff to the list? or should
> i write it directly to the phabricator project? what brings me to
> another question: am i allowed to comment/ assign stuff (of course to
> myself) on phabricator? So keep it a little up to date?
>
> Just use phabricator directly, it's much better for tracking purposes and
> to
> have discussions on individual points. Especially with the keyboard stuff
> we
> want to let the plasma developers solve some of the issues since it can be
> quite tricky and they know the code and should review changes anyway.
>
> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain how on
> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try to do
> it.
>
> ah, thats even a awsome idea! I will search for those an label as soon i
> can turn on my home computer (i m currently still at work).
> as i remember the window switcher/ workspace switcher doesn't talk as
> IMO important parts of the desktop (but i also asume its not a typical
> "missing lable" bug and will require a little more, not sure).
>
> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did attempt
> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good
> progress
> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>
> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost works, but
> for
> example misses some label, just to get started on something that will be
> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be a bit
> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build and
> work,
> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>
> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress
> reports.
>
> ok so i will register a blog there? maybe something like an "team" blog?
> maybe others wants to blog there as well?
> maybe first thing we should blog should some initial instruction how to
> make orca run on KDE (requirements, shortcuts, what you already did at
> mailing list).
>
> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to get Orca
> working in general, that would be great!
>
> Cheers,
> Frederik
>
> cheers chrys
>
> Am 11.10.18 um 16:53 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>
> Hi Chrys and everyone,
>
> I cut out parts of the mail to focus on what I think is relevant and try
> to
> answer inline below.
>
> On onsdag 10. oktober 2018 23.27.38 CEST [email protected] wrote:
>
> For me the major issues i see in QT/Plasma:
> 1. bad keyboard navigation (ho to focus panel, embedded widgets, tray
> whatever)
>
> This is something where the Plasma folks have been very helpful, I think
> once we talk to them now, they will be even more receptive to make
> improvements since this comes from users and not just me :)
> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the plasma
> mailing list as a first step.
>
> 2. a lot of missing a11y names, labels roles
>
> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain how on
> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try to do
> it.>
>
> 3. a11y Performance can be very bad here sometimes
>
> That will be harder to fix, but it's something I can look into, I think
> this requires filing issues on bugs.kde.org to track, with steps how to
> reproduce things. Some things may also be easiest to fix in Orca, let's
> see.>
>
> 4. it also crashes a lot with screenreader enabled ( for sure orca deas
> not
> hanle everything here gracefully, orcas  QT scrips are not as good tested
> as its GTK script)
>
> These I'm interested in, especially if you somehow manage to generate
> backtraces, so that the issues can be fixed in Qt and or KDE.
>
> 5. my nasty ezoom issues lol
>
> I already read some stuff and found the widgets are mostly (all?) weitten
> in qml.
> i understood that quite good because no black magic here :).
> Some useful links to me i want to share because they may help others too:
> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html
> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html
> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingStarte
> d
>
> I currently play with that.
>
> Awesome! Please let me know when things are unclear, I can update the
> docs.
>
> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for planning.
>
> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used for code
> review.
>
> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>
> Yea i already found that and see some stuff like  missing a11y labels or
> keyboard nav here and there. So fits with my observations.
>
> But i see no way to register at this website to comment, create todos or
> send patches? How is the wotkflow here?
>
> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
> is where you should be able to sign up.
>
> The same credentials should work for phabricator:
> https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=%2F
>
> I hope all of that is accessible!
>
> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see what is
> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the things
>
> that
>
> don't work.
>
> Yea. will do that. I wanted to take a look in kickers favorite/
> bookmark keyboard nav first. Sounds not so complex as i m a beginner
> in QT/ QML / Plasma world.
>
> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more attention :)
>
> Thats an realy cool idea! Is there already something like a KDE  a11y
> blogging section or category ?
>
> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress
> reports.
>
> It should indeed find more publicity in fact most huge issues for
> blind guys are a oneliner by an good dev :/. So much issues can be
> wiped out when devs know how to care about that. With the nice side
> effect that automated testing works as well :). Even users need to
> know that the situation improves. Thats why many impaired people dont
> use or even try KDE. Because in there brain is still „nothing works
> there for me“ and this is just wrong i think. A lot of great work
> already happend at this sector already.
>
> Yes, we just need a bit more mind-share and pointing out the issues,
> people
> are very willing to help but often just a bit clueless. Let's assume good
> faith, I haven't met anyone in KDE who was opposed to making things more
> accessible.
>
> Cheers,
> Frederik
>
> Cheers, greez from germany
>
> Chrys
>
> Zitat von Frederik Gladhorn <[email protected]> <[email protected]>:
>
> Hi Chrys,
>
> I'll answer your mail inline, below.
>
> On torsdag 23. august 2018 10.16.15 CEST [email protected] wrote:
>
> Howdy list,
>
> My name is chrys. I m a visual impaired guy from germany. I m new to
> this list.
> Since Gnome gets more and more crippled i decide to change to KDE/
>
> Plasma.
>
> And it was one of best decisions I did. Plasma is awsome and i wont
> miss it now (lol).
> I use KWins zoom plugin.
>
> Great to hear that the zooming works :)
>
> My girlfrind is blind. She currently switched to Mate for the same
> reason like me. Mate is pretty accessible. But there are a lot of
> stuff missing what we would suspect from an modern desktop (search in
> menu and those stuff).
> Plasma has all that. So i decide to try plasma using Orca.
> My results: Its very slow, unstable and often hard to navigate. But it
> worked at all! thats more that i was suspecting. What tells me that
> the plasma shell already exposes the needed information to the at-spi
> (cool).
> Impressed by that results, I want start fixing up stuff for KDE/
> Plasma/ QT a11y to make work for her (and ohters) one day.
> So i read
> https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility
> and
> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility
> what brings me to the point to say hello here in the list :).
>
> Wow, amazing! That means our efforts did pay off. This is really
> exciting
>
> to
>
> read. I hope we can quickly improve things.
>
> Sadly information is very rare in a11y stuff (not only for KDE). Thats
> why i want to find others who maybe already have knowledge to Mentor
> me or wants to work together with me to raise the motivation and fun
>
> :). on my way to get touched with that.
>
> So:
> 1. Is there someone out there who wants to join my effort?
>
> Yes, I've been trying to get things working for a long while, but I
>
> cannot do
>
> this alone (neither time nor energy wise).
>
> 2. Is there someone out there who can Mentor me a bit for my first
>
> steps?
>
> I'm happy to do that, sorry for the late reaction, I was generally busy
> lately.
>
> 3. Is there an effort what already exists what i can maybe join?
>
> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for planning.
>
> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used for code
> review.
>
> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>
> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see what is
> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the things
>
> that
>
> don't work.
>
> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more attention :)
>
> Cheers,
> Frederik
>
> cheers chrys
>
>
>
>
>
>
>