Re: KDE/ QT/ Plasma accessibility contributions

Howdy Rob,

not that i know of.
but for plasma contributions are quite easy and often dont need  
recompile since it is javascript like.
also the stuff i did could be patched quite easy.
wanna dive in :)? so i can explain.

cheers chrys


Zitat von Rob Whyte <[email protected]>:

> Is there an image for bleeding edge or a wiki article on where to get
> everything from git and  any particular order?
>
> Don't ask for much I know loL.
>
>
> thanks
>
>
> Warm regards Rob Whyte JAWS certified 2018
> On 15/10/18 08:47, chrys wrote:
>> Howdy List,
>>
>> related to my mail
>>> - desktop icons
>>>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
>> i just found the following:
>> https://pointieststick.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/this-week-in-usability-productivity-part-40/
>>> Keyboard navigation once again works properly on the desktop
>>> <https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399566> (Eike Hein, KDE Plasma
>>> 5.14.1)
>>
>> it seems that the keyboard navigation on desktop is fixed again in KDE
>> Plasma 5.14.1.
>> that already wipes something from the list of todos 8-). Thanks Eike! ;).
>>
>> cheers chrys
>>
>> Am 14.10.18 um 21:41 schrieb chrys:
>>> Howdy Federik, Howdy List,
>>>
>>>> Just use phabricator directly,
>>> ok i will do so.
>>>
>>>> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did
>>>> attempt
>>>> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good
>>>> progress
>>>> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>>> That would be cool :). its very needed.
>>> I think the gnome world is doing some magic special style handling
>>> that orca seems to translate this into ATK_STATE_SELECTED state.
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/commit/7d44c666ff59c437d1e3b7111dc51460f5e33c95
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost
>>>> works, but for
>>>> example misses some label, just to get started on something that
>>>> will be
>>>> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be
>>>> a bit
>>>> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build
>>>> and work,
>>>> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>>> agree. sadly this was a busy weekend. so i was just able to do some
>>> basic tests on KDE 5.14.
>>> Overall I think its good to prio the following elements:
>>> - Kicker
>>>     1. application overview: better navigation tab should switch
>>> between panels, arrowing should go to next element in _current_ panel
>>> (blind people dont see the visual barriers on the screen, so the
>>> keyboard need to respect them as well)
>>>     2. application overview: "apps and documentation" and
>>> "Miniprograms" don't have an label (maybe this is a good beginner
>>> task and example we want to do)
>>>     3. application starter: does not work with orca here (since it is
>>> the default mode, it would be good if it is accessible))
>>>     4. application starter: make "bookmark" section keyboard navigable
>>> - desktop icons
>>>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
>>>     2. Give them an a11y label
>>> - task switcher (even if it is more complicated - its an basic
>>> component to use an desktop)
>>>     1. make it able to speak
>>>
>>> because those components are the most basic for desktop to use it. if
>>> those are working out well. more users will follow to test (and even
>>> maybe more developers in that area). I would pin the list above (what
>>> is not already there) down to phabricator if you are fine with.
>>>
>>> more "advanced" stuff like tray area, workspace switcher and access
>>> to individual plasmoids should follow.
>>> For access to plasmodis i have an cool idea:
>>> Is there an way to focus an plasmoid via an API? I read about how to
>>> get all running plasmoids. maybe i can bake out an "plasmoid
>>> switcher" where you can focus any element on your desktop via an
>>> hierarchic menu (maybe with some additional information).
>>> like this:
>>> pressing an shortcut opens an menu (what represents the containers on
>>> the desktop) and an search box. if you open an menu entry you get all
>>> "child" plasmoids. so plasmoids what are embedded int the container):
>>> [search] (type ahead search for plasmoids)
>>> [Bottom Panel] -> submenu{kicker, window switcher,workspace switcher,
>>> Tray -> {TrayIcon1, TrayIcon2}} (whatever is on Top Panel)
>>> [Top Panel] -> submenu{Clock(12:00 AM), Volume(60 %), Network(WIFI:
>>> <SSID> signal 50%)}
>>> [Desktop] -> submenu{Weather(Cloudy, 12 degrees), Clock(12:00
>>> AM)..... }(what ever is o desktop)
>>>
>>> pressing enter will focus the selected element. maybe its even useful
>>> for non handicapped power uses users.
>>>
>>>> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to
>>>> get Orca
>>>> working in general, that would be great!
>>> i can do this. i will register a blog as soon as i figured how (lol)
>>> and will write it down there.
>>> special for KDE users is very useful to know that there is an
>>> shortcut by default to start it ( in fact very awsome!, because it
>>> means starting the screenreader is just one keyboard stroke away).
>>>
>>> cheers chrys
>>>
>>> Am 14.10.18 um 10:26 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>>>> Hi Chrys,
>>>>
>>>> It's awesome to have you on board, reading your mail makes me very
>>>> happy :)
>>>>
>>>> On fredag 12. oktober 2018 16:06:10 CEST chrys wrote:
>>>>> Howdy Frederik,
>>>>>
>>>>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>>>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>>>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>>>>> Yes, strike! :) worked for me. I registered and can login now.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the
>>>>>> plasma
>>>>>> mailing list as a first step.
>>>>> so should i do a more detailed list of keyboard navigation flaws/
>>>>> needs
>>>>> for some basic stuff?should i sent all that stuff to the list? or
>>>>> should
>>>>> i write it directly to the phabricator project? what brings me to
>>>>> another question: am i allowed to comment/ assign stuff (of course to
>>>>> myself) on phabricator? So keep it a little up to date?
>>>> Just use phabricator directly, it's much better for tracking
>>>> purposes and to
>>>> have discussions on individual points. Especially with the keyboard
>>>> stuff we
>>>> want to let the plasma developers solve some of the issues since it
>>>> can be
>>>> quite tricky and they know the code and should review changes anyway.
>>>>
>>>>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain
>>>>>> how on
>>>>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try
>>>>>> to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>> ah, thats even a awsome idea! I will search for those an label as
>>>>> soon i
>>>>> can turn on my home computer (i m currently still at work).
>>>>> as i remember the window switcher/ workspace switcher doesn't talk as
>>>>> IMO important parts of the desktop (but i also asume its not a typical
>>>>> "missing lable" bug and will require a little more, not sure).
>>>> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did
>>>> attempt
>>>> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good
>>>> progress
>>>> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>>>>
>>>> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost
>>>> works, but for
>>>> example misses some label, just to get started on something that
>>>> will be
>>>> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be
>>>> a bit
>>>> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build
>>>> and work,
>>>> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>>>>
>>>>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>>>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some
>>>>>> progress
>>>>>> reports.
>>>>> ok so i will register a blog there? maybe something like an "team"
>>>>> blog?
>>>>> maybe others wants to blog there as well?
>>>>> maybe first thing we should blog should some initial instruction
>>>>> how to
>>>>> make orca run on KDE (requirements, shortcuts, what you already did at
>>>>> mailing list).
>>>> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to
>>>> get Orca
>>>> working in general, that would be great!
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Frederik
>>>>
>>>>> cheers chrys
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 11.10.18 um 16:53 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>>>>>> Hi Chrys and everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I cut out parts of the mail to focus on what I think is relevant
>>>>>> and try
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> answer inline below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On onsdag 10. oktober 2018 23.27.38 CEST [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> For me the major issues i see in QT/Plasma:
>>>>>>> 1. bad keyboard navigation (ho to focus panel, embedded widgets,
>>>>>>> tray
>>>>>>> whatever)
>>>>>> This is something where the Plasma folks have been very helpful, I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> once we talk to them now, they will be even more receptive to make
>>>>>> improvements since this comes from users and not just me :)
>>>>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the
>>>>>> plasma
>>>>>> mailing list as a first step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. a lot of missing a11y names, labels roles
>>>>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain
>>>>>> how on
>>>>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try
>>>>>> to do
>>>>>> it.>
>>>>>>> 3. a11y Performance can be very bad here sometimes
>>>>>> That will be harder to fix, but it's something I can look into, I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> this requires filing issues on bugs.kde.org to track, with steps
>>>>>> how to
>>>>>> reproduce things. Some things may also be easiest to fix in Orca,
>>>>>> let's
>>>>>> see.>
>>>>>>> 4. it also crashes a lot with screenreader enabled ( for sure
>>>>>>> orca deas
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> hanle everything here gracefully, orcas  QT scrips are not as
>>>>>>> good tested
>>>>>>> as its GTK script)
>>>>>> These I'm interested in, especially if you somehow manage to generate
>>>>>> backtraces, so that the issues can be fixed in Qt and or KDE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. my nasty ezoom issues lol
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I already read some stuff and found the widgets are mostly (all?)
>>>>>>> weitten
>>>>>>> in qml.
>>>>>>> i understood that quite good because no black magic here :).
>>>>>>> Some useful links to me i want to share because they may help
>>>>>>> others too:
>>>>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html
>>>>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html
>>>>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingStarte
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I currently play with that.
>>>>>> Awesome! Please let me know when things are unclear, I can update the
>>>>>> docs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for
>>>>>>>> planning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used
>>>>>>>> for code
>>>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>>>>> Yea i already found that and see some stuff like  missing a11y
>>>>>>> labels or
>>>>>>> keyboard nav here and there. So fits with my observations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But i see no way to register at this website to comment, create
>>>>>>> todos or
>>>>>>> send patches? How is the wotkflow here?
>>>>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>>>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>>>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same credentials should work for phabricator:
>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=%2F
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope all of that is accessible!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see
>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> don't work.
>>>>>>> Yea. will do that. I wanted to take a look in kickers favorite/
>>>>>>> bookmark keyboard nav first. Sounds not so complex as i m a beginner
>>>>>>> in QT/ QML / Plasma world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more
>>>>>>>> attention :)
>>>>>>> Thats an realy cool idea! Is there already something like a KDE 
>>>>>>> a11y
>>>>>>> blogging section or category ?
>>>>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>>>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some
>>>>>> progress
>>>>>> reports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It should indeed find more publicity in fact most huge issues for
>>>>>>> blind guys are a oneliner by an good dev :/. So much issues can be
>>>>>>> wiped out when devs know how to care about that. With the nice side
>>>>>>> effect that automated testing works as well :). Even users need to
>>>>>>> know that the situation improves. Thats why many impaired people
>>>>>>> dont
>>>>>>> use or even try KDE. Because in there brain is still „nothing works
>>>>>>> there for me“ and this is just wrong i think. A lot of great work
>>>>>>> already happend at this sector already.
>>>>>> Yes, we just need a bit more mind-share and pointing out the issues,
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> are very willing to help but often just a bit clueless. Let's
>>>>>> assume good
>>>>>> faith, I haven't met anyone in KDE who was opposed to making
>>>>>> things more
>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Frederik
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers, greez from germany
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chrys
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Zitat von Frederik Gladhorn <[email protected]>:
>>>>>>>> Hi Chrys,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll answer your mail inline, below.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On torsdag 23. august 2018 10.16.15 CEST [email protected]
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Howdy list,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My name is chrys. I m a visual impaired guy from germany. I m
>>>>>>>>> new to
>>>>>>>>> this list.
>>>>>>>>> Since Gnome gets more and more crippled i decide to change to KDE/
>>>>>>> Plasma.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And it was one of best decisions I did. Plasma is awsome and i
>>>>>>>>> wont
>>>>>>>>> miss it now (lol).
>>>>>>>>> I use KWins zoom plugin.
>>>>>>>> Great to hear that the zooming works :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My girlfrind is blind. She currently switched to Mate for the same
>>>>>>>>> reason like me. Mate is pretty accessible. But there are a lot of
>>>>>>>>> stuff missing what we would suspect from an modern desktop
>>>>>>>>> (search in
>>>>>>>>> menu and those stuff).
>>>>>>>>> Plasma has all that. So i decide to try plasma using Orca.
>>>>>>>>> My results: Its very slow, unstable and often hard to navigate.
>>>>>>>>> But it
>>>>>>>>> worked at all! thats more that i was suspecting. What tells me
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the plasma shell already exposes the needed information to the
>>>>>>>>> at-spi
>>>>>>>>> (cool).
>>>>>>>>> Impressed by that results, I want start fixing up stuff for KDE/
>>>>>>>>> Plasma/ QT a11y to make work for her (and ohters) one day.
>>>>>>>>> So i read
>>>>>>>>> https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility
>>>>>>>>> what brings me to the point to say hello here in the list :).
>>>>>>>> Wow, amazing! That means our efforts did pay off. This is really
>>>>>>>> exciting
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> read. I hope we can quickly improve things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sadly information is very rare in a11y stuff (not only for
>>>>>>>>> KDE). Thats
>>>>>>>>> why i want to find others who maybe already have knowledge to
>>>>>>>>> Mentor
>>>>>>>>> me or wants to work together with me to raise the motivation
>>>>>>>>> and fun
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> :). on my way to get touched with that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So:
>>>>>>>>> 1. Is there someone out there who wants to join my effort?
>>>>>>>> Yes, I've been trying to get things working for a long while, but I
>>>>>>> cannot do
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this alone (neither time nor energy wise).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Is there someone out there who can Mentor me a bit for my first
>>>>>>> steps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm happy to do that, sorry for the late reaction, I was
>>>>>>>> generally busy
>>>>>>>> lately.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. Is there an effort what already exists what i can maybe join?
>>>>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for
>>>>>>>> planning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used
>>>>>>>> for code
>>>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see
>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> don't work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more
>>>>>>>> attention :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Frederik
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cheers chrys
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>