Re: Proposal for P2P disclaimer text

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On Monday 15 March 2004 15:46, Andreas Pour wrote:
<snip>
> In case you have not been paying attention to current events, the
> RIAA is suing a number of people for P2P file sharing.  They have
> sued hundreds of defendants.  This isn't just some patent
> hypothetical - or do you mean, we should wait until the KDE project
> is shut down, before reacting to legal threats to the project?

As far as I understand it, they are suing the users, not the vendors.
What's wrong with waiting until they approach KDE w.r.t. the=20
distribution of P2P software, then cry "Help" loudly and at the same=20
time remove the offending software from CVS until someone else stops=20
this madness in court?

If we proactively try to follow all legislations KDE software is used=20
in, we won't have time to code anymore. As an extreme example: No-one=20
proposes to add a disclaimer to Konq saying "browsing web sites with=20
illegal content might get you in jail. E.g. if you live in Ger*any and=20
download a copy of "Mein Kampf" from the internet, you infringe on the=20
copyright of the the Bavarian state bibliography."

> > As I said, disclaimers such as those presented here can do more
> > harm than help.
>
> Said and proven / convinced is another issue.

There was a ruling in Germany that voided this popular distancing in a=20
case of linking to warez sites (or similar). I don't suck this out of=20
my fingers, as we say in Germany ;) And yes, I think those=20
circumvention protection laws go to far, and I hope they are turned=20
down in the German contitutional court sometime in the future, but,=20
indeed, that has no bearing here.

> > It's quite hard to convince a judge of their validity if
> > they disclaim stuff you knew beforehand. They raise the impression
> > that you only tried to cover your ass with them, not stand to them.
>
> I don't see how whether you agree with the law or not has any
> bearing.  The issue one needs to worry about is "contributory
> infringement", which has a certain legal meaning, and whether or not
> in your heart of hearts you think that copyright law is good or bad
> for society is another issue.

What I want to say is that adding this disclaimer to P2P software, but=20
not to Konq or kget or knode or ksirc or kopete gives the impression=20
that we are aware of the overproprotional use (w.r.t. your typical web=20
brwoser) of P2P software in copyright infringements. Yet we still ship=20
it. And why not? Many tools can be used to break the law.

In this light, the disclaimer could fire back when the judge asks either=20
of these two questions:
1. Given that you know that P2P software is mostly used for unlicensed=20
copying of copyrighted material, why do you continue to ship it?
2. Given that you know that web browsers and IM software can be used for=20
unlicensed copying of copyrighted material, why didn't you add this=20
disclaimer to that kind of software?

> > And that is exactly the case here. It's like distancing yourself
> > from warez sites and at the same time maintaining a warez link
> > list.
>
> I don't see the similarity.  If KDE encourages unlawful use then such
> encouragement should immediately stop.  Perhaps you are projecting
> your use of the software onto others?
<snip>

I am guilty, yes. I share patches over ksirc. I could as well share=20
mp3's. What's the diff between IM and P2P, then? Shall we add this=20
disclaimer to every network-enabled application? We post each other=20
fish:// URLs to documents and patches over IRC. We could as well post=20
fish:// URLs to movies or mp3's.

That's what I'm saying: If you start this here (P2P), where do you want=20
to stop?

OTOH, I'm fine with a KDE-wide disclaimer "KDE is network transparent.=20
Therefore, almost every KDE application can conceivably be used for=20
unlicensed coping of copyrighted material. yadda yadda." That would be=20
much more trustworthy than singling out P2P software, which is just a=20
funny way to do ftp/www.

Marc

=2D-=20
[...] the USA needs a German product: Vergangenheitsbew=E4ltigung
   -- Craig Morris: US boycott of products from countries against war?
      www.telepolis.de

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