Re: [dylan] The Future of Dylan: Why are we here?

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I'm a fan of the macro system, once I got the hang of using it while
working on the SQLite bindings. I found it easier to grok than writing
macros in CL.

The mix between static and dynamic typing isn't a big bonus for me. I was
never really good at working in dynamically typed languages anyhow. The
amount of cursing I do with Ruby at work is astounding. I can see where
they're quite useful and powerful though, so I wouldn't necessarily want to
lose that feature.

I like the syntax. It can seem a little verbose at times, but I really
learned to code in Turbo Pascal back in DOS while everyone around me was
working in C. It took me a while to adjust to C-like languages.

I like generating nice, native binaries. It's one of the things I don't
like about Java. Trying to tell someone how to run a Java program, or
worrying about what magic incantation I need to give the
maven-assembly-plugin to get a useful single jar can be annoying, not to
mention the various versions of the Java runtime you might have installed,
and the burden of requiring a user to install the JVM. Or, just doing a ps
-ef and seeing that massive command line passed to the JVM.

I don't tend to care about GUI toolkits that aren't just using the native
widgets. I adore Qt, and despise Swing. The only Swing app I use on a
regular basis is IntelliJ, but the folks at JetBrains have put many years
into making that not feel like your average Swing app. I wouldn't miss DUIM
if it were gone. That said, I haven't worked with DUIM. My only
interactions with it have been the Windows IDE, and that feels like going
back almost two decades in UI.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.






On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 12:22 AM, Bruce Mitchener <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I'm going to break this up over a couple of days as I'd like to see
> (hopefully) some discussion of the early points before we move into the
> later points.
>
> I will also try not to answer the questions with my own answers within the
> initial posts, but use a follow up to do so so that my opinions are at
> least somewhat separate from the questions.
>
> If you haven't used Dylan in a long time, your answers are welcome as well!
>
> Even if you just think that you agree with what others have posted or some
> of the points below, please respond anyway. The more feedback that we get,
> the more we can understand which positions are strongly held and by how
> much of the community.
>
> ------
>
>     The very least you can do in your life is figure out what you hope for.
>     And the most you can do is live inside that hope.
>     Not admire it from a distance but live right in it, under its roof.
>
>       -- Barbara Kingsolver
>
> It is time for everyone with an interest in Dylan to think about the
> future of Dylan.
>
> But let's take a step backwards. Why are we here? Why are we reading this?
>
> What Makes Dylan Special?
> ------
>
> What makes Dylan special? What makes it great? What makes some of us want
> to keep working on it, well past any hope of entering the mainstream?
>
> Some like the macros. Some like the condition system. Others appreciate
> the sliding scale between static and dynamic behaviors. Some appreciate
> that it can generate efficient, native executables and shared libraries.
> Still others find the syntax to be nice while, admittedly, others hate the
> syntax. Yet others appreciate the coherent and consistent design behind
> Dylan, where a set of core features mesh well to provide a clean and clear
> language. Perhaps some value that we have an actual language specification
> via the DRM.
>
> What brings you here?
>
> To move on and think further about the future of Dylan, we must understand
> why we've chosen to be here in the first place.
>
> What are the core values of Dylan? What must, above all else, be preserved?
>
> Thanks!
>
>  - Bruce
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hackers mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://lists.opendylan.org/mailman/listinfo/hackers
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m a fan of the macro system, once I got the hang of =
using it while working on the SQLite bindings. I found it easier to grok th=
an writing macros in CL.<div><br></div><div>The mix between static and dyna=
mic typing isn&#39;t a big bonus for me. I was never really good at working=
 in dynamically typed languages anyhow. The amount of cursing I do with Rub=
y at work is astounding. I can see where they&#39;re quite useful and power=
ful though, so I wouldn&#39;t necessarily want to lose that feature.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I like the syntax. It can seem a little verbose at time=
s, but I really learned to code in Turbo Pascal back in DOS while everyone =
around me was working in C. It took me a while to adjust to C-like language=
s.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I like generating nice, native binaries. It&#39;s one o=
f the things I don&#39;t like about Java. Trying to tell someone how to run=
 a Java program, or worrying about what magic incantation I need to give th=
e maven-assembly-plugin to get a useful single jar can be annoying, not to =
mention the various versions of the Java runtime you might have installed, =
and the burden of requiring a user to install the JVM. Or, just doing a ps =
-ef and seeing that massive command line passed to the JVM.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t tend to care about GUI toolkits that aren&#=
39;t just using the native widgets. I adore Qt, and despise Swing. The only=
 Swing app I use on a regular basis is IntelliJ, but the folks at JetBrains=
 have put many years into making that not feel like your average Swing app.=
 I wouldn&#39;t miss DUIM if it were gone. That said, I haven&#39;t worked =
with DUIM. My only interactions with it have been the Windows IDE, and that=
 feels like going back almost two decades in UI.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Anyhow, that&#39;s my two cents.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 12:22 AM, Bruce =
Mitchener <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]=
" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m going to break this=
 up over a couple of days as I&#39;d like to see (hopefully) some discussio=
n of the early points before we move into the later points.<div>
<br></div><div>I will also try not to answer the questions with my own answ=
ers within the initial posts, but use a follow up to do so so that my opini=
ons are at least somewhat separate from the questions.</div>
<div><br></div><div><div>If you haven&#39;t used Dylan in a long time, your=
 answers are welcome as well!</div><div><br></div></div><div><div>Even if y=
ou just think that you agree with what others have posted or some of the po=
ints below, please respond anyway. The more feedback that we get, the more =
we can understand which positions are strongly held and by how much of the =
community.</div>

<div><br></div></div><div>------</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 The very least you can do in your life is figure out what you hope for.=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 And the most you can do is live inside that hope.<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Not admire it from a distance but live right in it,=
 under its roof.</div>

<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Barbara Kingsolver</div><div><b=
r></div><div>It is time for everyone with an interest in Dylan to think abo=
ut the future of Dylan.</div><div><br></div><div>But let&#39;s take a step =
backwards. Why are we here? Why are we reading this?</div>

<div><br></div><div>What Makes Dylan Special?</div><div>------</div><div><b=
r></div><div>What makes Dylan special? What makes it great? What makes some=
 of us want to keep working on it, well past any hope of entering the mains=
tream?</div>

<div><br></div><div>Some like the macros. Some like the condition system. O=
thers appreciate the sliding scale between static and dynamic behaviors. So=
me appreciate that it can generate efficient, native executables and shared=
 libraries. Still others find the syntax to be nice while, admittedly, othe=
rs hate the syntax. Yet others appreciate the coherent and consistent desig=
n behind Dylan, where a set of core features mesh well to provide a clean a=
nd clear language. Perhaps some value that we have an actual language speci=
fication via the DRM.</div>

<div><br></div><div>What brings you here?<br></div><div><br></div><div>To m=
ove on and think further about the future of Dylan, we must understand why =
we&#39;ve chosen to be here in the first place.</div><div><br></div><div>

What are the core values of Dylan? What must, above all else, be preserved?=
</div><div><br></div></div><div>Thanks!<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><div>
<br></div><div>=C2=A0- Bruce</div><div><br></div></font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
hackers mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]<=
/a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.opendylan.org/mailman/listinfo/hackers" target=3D"=
_blank">https://lists.opendylan.org/mailman/listinfo/hackers</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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