Dylan on Windows: The PDB issue
"Peter Robisch" <[email protected]> Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:30:00 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.lang.dylan.gwydion.devel |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
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Hallo,
today I found a link to the Visual Studio UserVoice site, which also
provides the options to
make suggestion for debugger features.
https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-2015/category
/31799-debugger
This reminded me that one issue in adapting OpenDylan to modern Windows
version is the
so-called PDB issue.
The PDB is a proprietary file format (developed by Microsoft) for storing
debugging information about a program.
The OpenDylan Compiler still sticks on VS C 6.0 as for this MS Linker
version is the PDB file format was transparent.
And, yes, there is already a related feature request titled:
Open PDB file format to enable open source compiler output debugging
on the Visual Studio UserVoice site. See
https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-2015/suggesti
ons/6588334-open-pdb-file-format-to-enable-open-source-compile
The feature currently only has three votes.
Here are my questions to the Dylan hackers:
- What are their views about the PDB issues in the current dylan
hacker group?
- How else might be interested in a transparent PDB?
- Who else can we motivate to vote for such a feature?
I like to recommend the following steps
- Draft writing a profound comment for that feature request on the
hacker list first
- Ring the bells for our comment, and may be revise it based on the
feedback
- Add our comment to feature request on the Visual Studio
UserVoice site
- Ring the bells so that the feature request gets as much votes as
possible
I once already contacted Microsoft related to the PDB issues.
The related correspondence you can read below.
Greetings from Germany
Peter Robisch
Von: John Montgomery [mailto:[email protected]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. April 2014 01:30
An: Martyn Lovell; Peter Robisch
Betreff: RE: Support for OpenSource Compiler for Win8/WinRT requested
Thanks, Martyn.
Hi Peter,
We've heard a few compiler creators asking for opening of various formats
that today Microsoft really looks at as internal to the Visual Studio tool
and C++ compiler - PDB among them. The current PDB format is quite complex,
it isn't well-documented, and we do change it periodically. Right now, the
source code of the Visual Studio C++ compiler is pretty much the
documentation for it. In addition, we are looking at doing some work in this
area to improve performance - work that would change the format. We are
thinking about what we want to do here to make sure that we don't, for
example, document a format that's immediately out of date.
I'd like to keep in touch with you as we figure out what we want to do to
make sure it will actually address your needs.
John
From: Martyn Lovell
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 4:27 PM
To: Peter Robisch; John Montgomery
Subject: RE: Support for OpenSource Compiler for Win8/WinRT requested
Peter, I'm adding back John Montgomery to this thread so he can comment.
Martyn
From: Peter Robisch [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 4:10 AM
To: Martyn Lovell
Subject: Re: Support for OpenSource Compiler for Win8/WinRT requested
Martyn,
thank you for your reply. You wrote:
>> we don't have any public documentation of the PDB format nor API for
writing it
Which I would interpret as:
. Microsoft does currently not support any third parties,
who are interested in bringing a modern compiler to the new WinRT OS.
(Or does Microsoft has started any initiative to support third parties
in writing a compiler for the new WinRT OS? Maybe some initiative which
uses a new debug format?)
In the context of the Microsoft Roslyn Project I can't belief that this will
be an ongoing situation.
I know that the Roslyn Project is restricted to .Net Technology, but I
thought the Roslyn project is a signal that states:
"Microsoft likes to win the productivity of the open source world".
So, hopefully a successor of the MS Roslyn Project may turn the current bad
news relate to the debug information into a good one.
In the meantime I like to evaluate whether there is any workaround possible.
So excuse that I like to revert to my question by restating it in other
words:
. Microsoft once back in the nineties supported the software
company Harlequin in developing
the Dylan compiler. What is policy of today:
Does Microsoft currently support external groups in writing a compiler
against the new core of the Win OS, WinRT?
Is writing a VS C++ backend for OpenDylan the way to go that VS C++
generates the PDB for OpenDylan?
Does Microsoft provide some Best Practice Document for Compiler Writer?
Please provide a short feedback, even if you are not the right person to
handle this information request.
If you are not the right person to handle this information request, I would
appreciate, if you forward this request appropriately.
Sincerely,
Peter Robisch
Germany
( My personal view:
In the current situation with Dart as new Google
web-language,
supporting Dylan on Windows platforms provides a win-win
situation
for Microsoft in the long term. Dylan has a very good
initial design for
a cross-platform and cross-OS language.
)
Von: Martyn Lovell [ <mailto:[email protected]>
mailto:[email protected]]
Gesendet: Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:21 PM
An: Peter Robisch
Cc: John Montgomery
Betreff: RE: Support for OpenSource Compiler for Win8/WinRT requested
Peter,
Thanks for reaching out. I have heard of Dylan and it is certainly a
fascinating language. Unfortunately, we don't have any public documentation
of the PDB format nor API for writing it. Sorry for the bad news,
Martyn
From: Peter Robisch [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:55 AM
To: Martyn Lovell
Subject: Support for OpenSource Compiler for Win8/WinRT requested
Greetings from Germany, Martyn.
For many years I am a passive member of the open source community
www.opendylan.org
I like to become an active one.
OpenDylan is a compiler once developed as an commercial product in the
nineties.
Maybe you have already heard about this Dylan project. If not
<http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/crusso/> Claudio Russo -
Microsoft Research,
can give you more information, as he once worked at Harlequin on this
compiler.
The greatest issue in adapting OpenDylan is - from my point of view - the
PDB issue.
The PDB is a proprietary file format (developed by Microsoft) for storing
debugging information about a program.
The OpenDylan Compiler still sticks on VS C 6.0 as for this MS Linker
version is the PDB file format was transparent.
The OpenDylan Community needs information on how to WRITE the PDB
format.
(MSDN provides information about reading, but not about writing.)
From the MS Research Common Compiler Infrastructure (CCI) project I know
that MS internally uses
a COM to write the PDB.
As you worked on the MS VC++ team, I hope that you can trigger, that the
Open Dylan community gets the information on
how to write the PDB files. This would allow to move OpenDylan's IDE
away from VS C 6.0, which would be a big step to bring
Open Dylan from the nineties into the modern age of programming
By the way the Dylan language is still an interesting one. If you talk to
<http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/crusso/> Claudio Russo -
Microsoft Research
give me a short feedback whether Claudio can share his opinion. : - )
Please provide a short feedback, even if you are not the right person to
handle this information request.
Sincerely,
Peter Robisch
Germany
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hallo, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>today I =
found a link to the </span><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Visual Studio UserVoice site, which also =
provides the options to <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>make suggestion for debugger =
features.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'> <a =
href=3D"https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-20=
15/category/31799-debugger">https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121=
579-visual-studio-2015/category/31799-debugger</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>This reminded =
me that one</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'> issue in =
adapting OpenDylan to modern Windows version is the =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>so-called PDB issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The PDB is =
a proprietary <i>file format</i> (developed by <i>Microsoft</i>) for =
storing debugging information about a program.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The =
OpenDylan Compiler still sticks on VS C 6.0 as for this MS Linker =
version is the PDB file format was transparent.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And, yes, =
there is already a related feature request =
titled:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:7.5pt;line-height:12.0pt'>=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'> =
</span><b><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#292C33'=
>Open PDB file format to enable open source compiler output =
debugging<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:7.5pt;line-height:12.0pt'>=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>on the Visual Studio =
UserVoice site. See</span><b><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#292C33'=
><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:7.5pt;mso-line-height-alt:=
12.0pt'><b><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#292C33'=
> </span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-20=
15/suggestions/6588334-open-pdb-file-format-to-enable-open-source-compile=
">https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-2015/sug=
gestions/6588334-open-pdb-file-format-to-enable-open-source-compile</a> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The feature currently only has three =
votes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Here are my =
questions to the Dylan hackers:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>What are their views about the PDB issues in the =
current dylan hacker group?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>How else might be interested in a transparent =
PDB?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Who else can we motivate to vote for such =
a feature?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt'><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt'><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I like to =
recommend the following steps<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Draft writing a profound comment for that =
feature request on the hacker list first<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Ring the bells for our comment, and may be =
revise it based on the feedback</span><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Add our comment to feature request on =
</span><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:#1F497D'>the </span><span =
lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Visual Studio UserVoice =
site<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Ring the bells so that the feature request gets =
as much votes as possible<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I once already =
contacted Microsoft related to the PDB issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The related =
correspondence you can read below.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Greetings from =
Germany<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Peter =
Robisch<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Von:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
John Montgomery [mailto:[email protected]] <br><b>Gesendet:</b> =
Mittwoch, 30. April 2014 01:30<br><b>An:</b> Martyn Lovell; Peter =
Robisch<br><b>Betreff:</b> RE: Support for OpenSource Compiler for =
Win8/WinRT requested<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thanks, =
Martyn.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi =
Peter,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We’ve =
heard a few compiler creators asking for opening of various formats that =
today Microsoft really looks at as internal to the Visual Studio tool =
and C++ compiler – PDB among them. The current PDB format is quite =
complex, it isn’t well-documented, and we do change it =
periodically. Right now, the source code of the Visual Studio C++ =
compiler is pretty much the documentation for it. In addition, we are =
looking at doing some work in this area to improve performance – =
work that would change the format. We are thinking about what we want to =
do here to make sure that we don’t, for example, document a format =
that’s immediately out of date. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I’d =
like to keep in touch with you as we figure out what we want to do to =
make sure it will actually address your needs. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Martyn Lovell =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 29, 2014 4:27 PM<br><b>To:</b> Peter =
Robisch; John Montgomery<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: Support for OpenSource =
Compiler for Win8/WinRT requested<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Peter, =
I’m adding back John Montgomery to this thread so he can =
comment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Martyn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Peter Robisch [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 28, 2014 4:10 AM<br><b>To:</b> Martyn =
Lovell<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Support for OpenSource Compiler for =
Win8/WinRT requested<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Martyn, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>thank you =
for your reply. You wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'> >> we don’t =
have any public documentation of the PDB format nor API for writing =
it<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Which I =
would interpret as:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>·</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> &=
nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Microsoft does =
currently not support any third parties, <br>who are interested in =
bringing a modern compiler to the new WinRT OS.<br><br>(Or does =
Microsoft has started any initiative to support third parties <br>in =
writing a compiler for the new WinRT OS? Maybe some initiative =
which<br>uses a new debug format?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In the context of the Microsoft Roslyn Project I =
can’t belief that this will be an ongoing situation. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I know that the Roslyn Project is restricted to =
.Net Technology, but I thought the Roslyn project is a signal that =
states: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'> “Microsoft =
likes to win the productivity of the open source =
world”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><br>So, hopefully a successor of =
the MS Roslyn Project may turn the current bad news relate to the debug =
information into a good one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In the =
meantime I like to evaluate whether there is any workaround =
possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>So excuse that I like to revert to my question =
by restating it in other words:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>·</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'> &=
nbsp; </span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Microsoft once =
back in the nineties supported the software company Harlequin in =
developing <br>the Dylan compiler. What is policy of today:<br><br>Does =
Microsoft currently support external groups in writing a =
compiler against the new core of the Win OS, WinRT?<br><br>Is writing a =
VS C++ backend for OpenDylan the way to go that VS C++ generates the PDB =
for OpenDylan?<br><br>Does Microsoft provide some Best Practice Document =
for Compiler Writer?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Please =
provide a short feedback, even if you are not the right person to handle =
this information request.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><br>If you =
are not the right person to handle this information request, I =
would appreciate, if you forward this request =
appropriately.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Peter =
Robisch<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Germany<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'> &=
nbsp; ( My personal =
view:<br><br> =
In the current situation with Dart =
as new Google =
web-language,<br> &n=
bsp; supporting Dylan on Windows =
platforms provides a win-win situation =
<br> &nb=
sp; for Microsoft in the long term. Dylan =
has a very good initial design for =
<br> &nb=
sp; a cross-platform and cross-OS language. =
<br> &nb=
sp; )<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Von:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Mar</span><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>tyn Lovell =
[</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>mailto:[email protected]</span></a></span><span =
lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] =
<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:21 PM<br><b>An:</b> =
Peter Robisch<br><b>Cc:</b> John Montgomery<br><b>Betreff:</b> RE: =
Support for OpenSource Compiler for Win8/WinRT =
requested<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Peter,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thanks for =
reaching out. I have heard of Dylan and it is certainly a fascinating =
language. Unfortunately, we don’t have any public documentation of =
the PDB format nor API for writing it. Sorry for the bad =
news,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Martyn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Peter Robisch [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">mailto:[email protected]</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> Martyn =
Lovell<br><b>Subject:</b> Support for OpenSource Compiler for Win8/WinRT =
requested<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> =
Greetings from Germany, =
Martyn.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> For many years I am a passive member of the open =
source community <a =
href=3D"http://www.opendylan.org">www.opendylan.org</a> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> I like to become an active =
one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> OpenDylan is a compiler once developed as an =
commercial product in the nineties.<br> Maybe you have already =
heard about this Dylan project. If not <a =
href=3D"http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/crusso/"><em><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";text-decoration:none'>Claudio=
Russo</span></em> - Microsoft Research</a>,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US> can give you more =
information, as he once worked at Harlequin on this =
compiler.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> The greatest issue in adapting OpenDylan is - from =
my point of view - the PDB issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US> The PDB is a proprietary =
<i>file format</i> (developed by <i>Microsoft</i>) for storing debugging =
information about a program.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US> The OpenDylan Compiler still =
sticks on VS C 6.0 as for this MS Linker version is the PDB file format =
was transparent.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> The OpenDylan Community needs information on =
how to WRITE the PDB format.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US> (MSDN provides =
information about reading, but not about =
writing.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> From the MS Research Common Compiler =
Infrastructure (CCI) project I know that MS internally uses =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> a COM to write the PDB. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> As you worked on the MS VC++ team, I hope =
that you can trigger, that the Open Dylan community gets the information =
on<br> how to write the PDB files. This would allow to move =
OpenDylan’s IDE away from VS C 6.0, which would be a big =
step to bring <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> Open Dylan from the nineties into the modern =
age of programming<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US> By the way the Dylan =
language is still an interesting one. If you talk to <a =
href=3D"http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/crusso/"><em><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";text-decoration:none'>Claudio=
Russo</span></em> - Microsoft Research</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US> give me a short feedback =
whether Claudio can share his opinion. : - =
)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Wingdings'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Please provide a short feedback, =
even if you are not the right person to handle this information =
request.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US> Peter =
Robisch<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US> Germany<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>
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