Re: Hello - and where to begin?

Jeff Fox wrote:
> Chuck has always wanted to make a nice PC with only Forth chips,
> only Forth OS, only Forth compiler etc. and IntellaSys will give
> him the ability to do this. He has expressed interest in making
> a colorforth PC out of SEAforth chips.  But people should
> understand that when we say OS we don't mean Windows or Linux,
> we mean Forth. And OS in Forth has a different meaning than
> when refering to popular PC OS.

Well then ... suppose you build a SEAforth PC -- wrap up a few billion 
or trillion Forth MIPS in a box with RAM, some mass storage, a keyboard, 
video, audio and mouse, running colorforth. Where would this machine 
have a *compelling* selling proposition?

You don't have floating point hardware, so high-performance scientific 
computing is out. So is document search and indexing a la Google for the 
same reason. You don't run C so most conventional software won't run on 
it. Game programmers don't do Forth any more, although perhaps you could 
find some upstart game development shop with the next "killer game".

What else do people do with high-performance computers? Well ... crypto, 
large-scale finite algebraic computation in general, maybe some kinds of 
simulation, some kinds of CAD. But that's really it, I think. Massively 
parallel non-floating-point machines have been built before, and they've 
invariably foundered on the difficulty of programming them and the lack 
of demand for MIPS without MFLOPS/GFLOPS/TFLOPS/PFLOPS.
> 
> It took a lot of work to create OLPC and it is available now.
> Perhaps Forth processors will make Forth PC available at some
> time in the future, but OLPC are available now.

For a limited definition of availability, yes, and also subject to the 
same sort of competitive pressures that define other high-tech markets. 
To be blunt, Intel is trying to kill the XO and probably will succeed. :(

> Sure.  But a similarly clocked Forth chip with a built in video
> generator and video accelerator would be a few cents.  For a few
> bucks you could have a lot of them.  The Intel compatibility
> is good if your goal is compatibility but from the perspective
> of a Forth programmer it makes programming in Forth less
> attractive than programming Forth chips.  So it is good if
> promoting Intel is important while Forth chips are more about
> promoting Forth.

Well, yeah ... I've seen the hoops Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan have had 
to jump through to get something as simple as ANS Forth to perform 
acceptably when the inner interpreter is compiled by GCC and run on a 
"modern" x86 with caches, branch prediction, etc. It's ugly.

Yes, you can outperform that with a Forth machine. In their day, Lisp 
machines could outperform a VAX with the same hardware costs too. Lisp 
survives, but neither the Lisp machine nor the VAX does today. :)
> 
> If the goal is to run C, and Linux is written in C, then using a
> processor designed to run C will be a good fit.  And if you need all
> that software then you need big memory spaces for the C.

Actually, it's the other way around. The C compilers and operating 
systems are designed to keep the processor busy. :)

> That's true.  If you can't program and need to use off the shelf
> software there is a lot of code in the C world on the shelf. This
> is good for promoting C and keeping the C programmers working.
> Forth programmers like the idea that it is fun to write software
> in Forth.  And we tend to think that writing application is
> easier when we don't have to deal with C being the biggest
> factor driving the requirements.

Yes, Forth programmers and Ruby programmers both emphasize the fact that 
their language is fun. I think Lisp and Scheme programmers probably feel 
the same way about their language.

> The $10 disposable PC for the third world was very different
> idea than OLPC.  OLPC has a remarkably low price and remarkable
> list of features considering that it is a C machine and it
> can probably run Forth as well as a $10 Forth PC if someone
> decides to produce those.  Until then OLPC is available and
> will be a great Forth platform with great potential with
> little competing in its niche.

Well ... you can't really buy an XO. And as far as "little competing in 
its niche", that has proved to be untrue. Intel is playing hardball with 
its ClassMate, and for "adult" users, there's the ASUS Eee. After all, 
Forth will run on anything with a processor, RAM and some mass storage. 
gForth in particular will run on anything with a GCC cross-development 
tool chain.