Re: merging edit time and run time

On Sat, 14 May 2005, Albert van der Horst wrote:

> On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 05:42:59PM -0400, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>>> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:13:28 +0100
>>> From: llew <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: Re: [colorforth] merging edit time and run time
>>> To: [email protected]
>>>
>>> Isn't that PC + Linux?
>>>
>>
>> The object of Linux is to hide the PC and every other piece
>> of hardware created under the abstraction of UNIX. That is
>> not same as producing computer hardware which is easy for
>> programmers to program.
>
> You got the goal and the means interchanged. The  Linux
> people try to make an easy environment for programmers.
> They succeed to that, not badly. To that I can testify myself.

That may be what some Linux programmers think. That does not deny the 
reality of Linux, the purpose of which is to establish and maintain this 
particular abstraction, UNIX.

> Then the means is to hide or abstract away those things I'm not
> currently interested in to program. You argue that this
> is not necessary or helpful.

I have stated the truth of Linux, which clearly has nothing to do 
with creating physicial hardware which is easy to program.

> I have seen little in the way
> to base this on. The logic behind abstracting away things
> is compelling. (Mathematics is based on it, too. And in a way
> it is the way a complex neurotic system like humans work.
> The neurons behind the eye work on abstraction, like lumped
> colors, right or left moving things, edges, what not.)

I'm not arguing against abstraction. However I think there is an enormous 
difference between abstractions made conciously and abstractions adopted 
and implemented unconciously.

> Chucks essay about the "user illusion" has made but a small dent in
> these insights. Or maybe Chuck just warns not to get overboard, and
> supplies alternatives. I've not seen him claiming that it is
> *the* alternative.

Every word defined in Forth is an abstraction. Chuck is a master of 
abstraction. The "user illusion" is about the mismatch between what 
the system is physically doing, and what user believes the system is 
doing.

Mark