Re: The OCaml MOOC offered again?
"Alexandre Gouraud [email protected] [ocaml_beginners]" <[email protected]> Tue, 31 Jan 2017 21:17:58 +0100
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.lang.ocaml.beginners |
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| Message-ID | <CAMNTtbqbLXCXTDQD4CzS0Txw35C-F0OJ9ntCaCvbrXgZLvn6Yw@mail.gmail.com> |
--94eb2c1cbbc009e180054769a22e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dears, Let me give you my two cents to this story. OCaml has been created by a french "public" research organisation called Inria. Therefore, the evolutions of the language have followed requirements that are way far from the promotion and adoption of a language by a majority of users. Their requirements were more research oriented, with quite limited resources. If it turns out that the language is useful and used by many researchers or developers, fine, but it was/is not the initial objective, nor any long(er) term objective. Research organizations, by nature, cannot deal with such objectives, as Microsoft or Sun or Google do with their own language. This being said, even business oriented organisation do not promote languages for the fun of it, it is usually because they think it brings them strategic advantage on their market...remember. At the end, INRIA's people don't have time anymore to promote the language, develop it, write books and answer to questions. They mainly rely on the community. This is why there is no decent environment for Windows developers, and I am the first one to deplore it. Finally, remember that it was a french initiative. I believe that because the engineers who first adopted it were not native English speakers was a barrier (and still is) a barrier to wider adoption of the language, despite the HUGE penetration of this language in the world. You see here the power of the language of a culture and the influence it allows. OCaml is great ! Keep coding :-) Cheers, Alexandre. 2017-01-31 17:58 GMT+01:00 Douglas Lewit [email protected] [ocaml_beginners] <[email protected]>: > > > Looks like it's a major relief for you to type + instead of ^ ? Hahahah= ahaha.... > very funny!!! I'm not sure if one language is really "better" than > another, but I find it really interesting why Don Syme ( F#'s creator ) d= id > it his way and why Xavier Leroy ( OCaml's creator ) did it another way. > Don Syme obviously made the decision that it was silly to have + for ints > and +. for floats, and I think in OCaml you need +/ for big ints, etc, > etc. So Don Syme combined everything into one overloaded operator. Is i= t > good or bad? I'm not sure. It depends on the programmer and why you're > programming. BUT.... I still believe that language documentation is very= , > very important. You can have the greatest computer language in the world= , > but if nobody writes about it or teaches it.... then who is going to know > about it except a minority of elite developers?! ( And the elitist > mentality will not help a language to become popular and successful. ) > > The OCaml MOOC is a fun course, and full of great information, but I don'= t > like that the team behind it is pretty bad about answering email queries. > I sent a couple of emails to OCamlPro requesting more information and did > not get back a single reply. I guess I'm not important enough for them t= o > worry about! ( Or so they think. ) Again.... a wonderful language, but > the community of people supporting the language have to do their work to > promote the language. Unless of course we want OCaml to go the route of > Pascal or Perl! > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Pierpaolo Bernardi [email protected] > [ocaml_beginners] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Douglas Lewit [email protected] >> [ocaml_beginners] <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > Hello everyone, >> > >> > Remember that OCaml MOOC offered through that university in Paris, >> France? Does anyone know if that course is going to be offered again in = the >> near future? It wasn't bad! Definitely challenging, but I learned a lot. >> >> The MOOC has been offered in 2015 and in 2016, both times it started >> around Oct/Nov. Lacking any other information, we can extrapolate >> from this small data set and hope that the MOOC will be offered again >> toward the end of 2017 :) >> >> > If I want to concatenate the strings "Hello, " and "World!" in OCaml I >> have to write "Hello, " ^ "World!", but in F# I would just write "Hello,= " >> + "World!". >> >> Just for curiosity, why in Ocaml you *HAVE*TO* use ^, while in F# you >> *JUST* use + ? >> >> Looks like it's a major relief for you to type + instead of ^ ? >> >> > The operator overloading feature however does have a disadvantage >> because if I don't make use of specific type annotations then the type >> checker automatically assumes that my function arguments are integers...= . >> and that is not always an accurate assumption! >> >> That's correct. And in addition, even when the assumptions turn out >> to be accurate, the code is less clear for a human reader. >> >> Cheers >> > >=20 > --=20 Alexandre --94eb2c1cbbc009e180054769a22e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Dears, </div><div><br></div><div>Let me give= you my two=C2=A0cents to this story. <span tabindex=3D"-1" id=3D":141.42">= OCaml</span> has been created by a french "public"=C2=A0research = organisation called <span tabindex=3D"-1" id=3D":141.43">Inria</span>. Ther= efore, the evolutions of the language have followed requirements that are w= ay far from the promotion and adoption of a language by a majority of users= . Their requirements were more research oriented, with quite limited resour= ces.=C2=A0If it turns out that the language is useful and used by many rese= archers or developers, fine, but it was/is not the initial objective, nor a= ny long(<span tabindex=3D"-1" id=3D":141.44">er</span>) term objective. Res= earch <span tabindex=3D"-1" id=3D":141.45">organizations</span>, by nature,= cannot deal with such objectives, as Microsoft or Sun or Google do with th= eir own language. This being said, even business oriented organisation do n= ot promote languages for the fun of it, it is usually because they think it= brings them strategic advantage on their market...remember. </div><div><br= ></div><div>At the end, <span tabindex=3D"-1" id=3D":141.46">INRIA's</s= pan> people don't have time anymore to promote the language, develop it= , write books and answer to questions. They mainly rely on the community. T= his is why there is no decent environment for Windows developers, and I am = the first one to deplore it. Finally, remember that it=C2=A0was a french in= itiative.=C2=A0I=C2=A0believe that because=C2=A0the=C2=A0engineers who firs= t adopted it=C2=A0were not native English speakers was a barrier (and still= is)=C2=A0a barrier to wider adoption of the language, despite the=C2=A0HUG= E penetration of this language in the world. You see here the power of the = language of a culture and the influence it allows. </div><div><br></div><di= v><span tabindex=3D"-1" id=3D":141.47">OCaml</span> is great ! Keep coding = :-)</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers, </div><div><br></div><div>Alexandre. <= /div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-0= 1-31 17:58 GMT+01:00 Douglas Lewit <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= >[email protected]</a> [ocaml_beginners] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"m= ailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">ocaml_beginners@ya= hoogroups.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "border-left:1px #ccc solid;"> <u></u> =20 <div style=3D"background-color:#fff;"> <span>=C2=A0</span> <div id=3D"m_-8400783697855280523ygrp-mlmsg"> <div id=3D"m_-8400783697855280523ygrp-msg"> <div id=3D"m_-8400783697855280523ygrp-text"> =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p></p><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:georgia;font-size:= 13px;">Looks like it's a major relief for you to type + instead of ^ ? = =C2=A0 </span><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" size=3D"4">Hahahahahaha..= .. very funny!!!=C2=A0 I'm not sure if one language is really "bet= ter" than another, but I find it really interesting why Don Syme ( F#&= #39;s creator ) did it his way and why Xavier Leroy ( OCaml's creator )= did it another way.=C2=A0 Don Syme obviously made the decision that it was= silly to have + for ints and +. for floats, and I think in OCaml you need = +/ for big ints, etc, etc.=C2=A0 So Don Syme combined everything into o= ne overloaded operator.=C2=A0 Is it good or bad?=C2=A0 I'm not sure.=C2= =A0 It depends on the programmer and why you're programming.=C2=A0 BUT.= ... I still believe that language documentation is very, very important.=C2= =A0 You can have the greatest computer language in the world, but if nobody= writes about it or teaches it.... then who is going to know about it excep= t a minority of elite developers?! =C2=A0( And the elitist mentality will n= ot help a language to become popular and successful. )</font><div><font fac= e=3D"monospace, monospace" size=3D"4"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"m= onospace, monospace" size=3D"4">The OCaml MOOC is a fun course, and full of= great information, but I don't like that the team behind it is pretty = bad about answering email queries.=C2=A0 I sent a couple of emails to OCaml= Pro requesting more information and did not get back a single reply.=C2=A0 = I guess I'm not important enough for them to worry about! =C2=A0( Or so= they think. ) =C2=A0Again.... a wonderful language, but the community of p= eople supporting the language have to do their work to promote the language= .=C2=A0 Unless of course we want OCaml to go the route of Pascal or Perl!</= font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" size=3D"4"><br></font><= /div></div><span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Pierpaolo Bernardi <a href=3D"mailto:olop= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> [ocaml_beginners= ] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">ocaml_beginners@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>></span> wrote= :<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;= "> <u></u> =20 <div style=3D"background-color:#fff;"> <span>=C2=A0</span> <div id=3D"m_-8400783697855280523m_-7001109014211587405ygrp-mlmsg"> <div id=3D"m_-8400783697855280523m_-7001109014211587405ygrp-msg"> <div id=3D"m_-8400783697855280523m_-7001109014211587405ygrp-text"> =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><span>On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Douglas Lewit <a href=3D"m= ailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> [ocaml_beginners] <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]<wbr>om</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > Hello everyone,<br> ><br> > Remember that OCaml MOOC offered through that university in Paris, Fra= nce? Does anyone know if that course is going to be offered again in the n= ear future? It wasn't bad! Definitely challenging, but I learned a lo= t.<br> <br></span> The MOOC has been offered in 2015 and in 2016, both times it started<br> around Oct/Nov. Lacking any other information, we can extrapolate<br> from this small data set and hope that the MOOC will be offered again<br> toward the end of 2017 :)<span><br> <br> > If I want to concatenate the strings "Hello, " and "W= orld!" in OCaml I have to write "Hello, " ^ "World!&quo= t;, but in F# I would just write "Hello, " + "World!".<= br> <br></span> Just for curiosity, why in Ocaml you *HAVE*TO* use ^, while in F# you<br> *JUST* use + ?<br> <br> Looks like it's a major relief for you to type + instead of ^ ?<span><b= r> <br> > The operator overloading feature however does have a disadvantage beca= use if I don't make use of specific type annotations then the type chec= ker automatically assumes that my function arguments are integers.... and t= hat is not always an accurate assumption!<br> <br></span> That's correct. And in addition, even when the assumptions turn out<br= > to be accurate, the code is less clear for a human reader.<br> <br> Cheers<br> </p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"color:#fff;height:0;"></div> </div> =20=20 </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> </span><p></p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"color:#fff;height:0;"></div> </div> =20=20 </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class= =3D"gmail_signature" data=3D"gmail_signature">Alexandre</div> </div> </p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Alexandre Gouraud <[email protected]= > <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; backgr= ound-color:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ocaml_beginners/conversations= /messages/14745;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxYm1tcDlzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ5OTkxOTQE= Z3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA2NzY0BG1zZ0lkAzE0NzQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTQ= 4NTg5MzkwMQ--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D14745">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3D= Re%3A%20%22ocaml_beginners%22%3A%3A%5B%5D%20The%20OCaml%20MOOC%20offered%20= again%3F" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;"> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DRe%= 3A%20%22ocaml_beginners%22%3A%3A%5B%5D%20The%20OCaml%20MOOC%20offered%20aga= in%3F" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ocaml_beginners/= conversations/newtopic;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlbjlucmptBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ5O= TkxOTQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA2NzY0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ4NTg5Mzkw= MQ--" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;color: #2D50FD;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= ocaml_beginners/conversations/topics/14740;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM2aTRmZzhmBF9TAzk3M= zU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ5OTkxOTQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDA2NzY0BG1zZ0lkAzE0NzQ1BHNlYwNm= dHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ4NTg5MzkwMQR0cGNJZAMxNDc0MA--" style=3D"text-dec= oration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (6) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 <div id=3D"megaphoneModule"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; backgr= ound-color:#E3E3E3;"> <div> <div class=3D"stream" style=3D"margin-bottom:10px;"> <div style=3D"background-color:white;"> <div class=3D"sn-img" style=3D"display:inline;"><img name=3D"tn= _file" style=3D"padding:0px 10px;vertical-align:top;margin-top:5px;" src=3D= "https://s.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/megaphone/1464031581_phpFA8bON"= height=3D"82" width=3D"82"></div> <div class=3D"mod-txt" style=3D"display:inline-block;"> <a rel=3D"nofollow" name=3D"sub_url" target=3D"_blank" href= =3D"https://yho.com/1wwmgg" style=3D"color:#0000FF;display:block;margin-lef= t:5px;text-decoration:none;"><span style=3D"font-size:15px;">Have you tried= the highest rated email app?</span></a> <div style=3D"max-width:530px;padding:2px 5px;">With 4.5 st= ars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the mar= ket. 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