re: Outstanding 3.4 bugs?

Craig Latta <[email protected]>
Newsgroups gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.foundation
Organization the NetJam project
Message-ID <[email protected]> 
Hi Ned--

> Are we going to do anything about them?

	I think we should address them in 3.5, not 3.4. In the absence of other
open issues, I think we should release 3.4.


-C

--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
[email protected]
www.netjam.org/resume
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
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Craig Latta wrote:
> 
> Hi Ned--
> 
> > Are we going to do anything about them?
> 
>         I think we should address them in 3.5, not 3.4. In the absence of other
> open issues, I think we should release 3.4.

I was going to agree with Craig here, these bugs alone don't seem serious
enough to postpone the 3.4 release.

But since Andreas just posted the ClassBuilder fix, I'm thinking that may be
worth including and postponing the release by a few days for people to test. 
Since I'm doing that, I could also perhaps include Ned's recent ArchiveViewer
fix, since I've looked at that and its seems straightforward and is a somewhat
important fix.

I would draw the line at looking at the other bugs, though, since there
weren't any fixes submitted for them yet.  Well, except for the desktop
gradient fix, but that bug seems too minor to add at the gamma stage.  (Even
with that bug, you still have the ability to create a gradient desktop... you
only have a problem if you happen to create a texture (grid) background
first.  There are probably hundreds of other bugs in Squeak with this level of
severity.)

The important thing is that we don't let these various bugs/fixes become
completely forgotten, which has happened in the past... they do need to be
considered for 3.5alpha.  Fixes like the gradient desktop one should probably
just go right into 3.5alpha.  I've been a bit busy with making sure 3.4 gets
done, but after that I'll look at harvesting some fixes for 3.5alpha, and
encourage others to do the same.

- Doug Way
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	Colin writes:

> I think it would be worth delaying the release of 3.4 to include this 
> fix. Having easy-to-install packages for Traits and Islands would be 
> very beneficial. The more people can play around with and exercise
> that code, the better.

	I don't think that's a convincing rationale for inclusion in 3.4. The
3.4 release is a vehicle for SqueakMap. I think only problems which have
a catastrophic effect on a newcomer's ability to use SqueakMap should
delay 3.4.

	Ned writes (on the Foundation list):

> ...since Andreas just posted the ClassBuilder fix, I'm thinking that
> may be worth including and postponing the release by a few days for
> people to test.

	Why? (And I don't use question marks lightly in this message, since I
know they could cause more delay. :)

> Since I'm doing that, I could also perhaps include Ned's recent
> ArchiveViewer fix, since I've looked at that and its seems
> straightforward and is a somewhat important fix.

	(:

	I don't think "somewhat important" cuts it at this release stage.
Instead, I think it's better to weigh the results of leaving something
out, rather than of including it.

	My recollection of our group discussions at OOPSLA, in November 2002,
were that we would take 3.2, add SqueakMap support to it, and release it
as 3.4. It is now February 2003. This surprises me, even given our
history. :)

	I think we should release 3.4 now, and defer all outstanding available
fixes into the 3.5a stream (subject to harvester approval). In our
current situation, I think anyone likely to encounter the bugs described
recently will be able to get them easily from the update stream. In the
meantime, newcomers will have easier access to SqueakMap sooner. I think
it's time to release.


	thanks,

-C

--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
[email protected]
www.netjam.org/resume
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
From [email protected] Fri Feb 28 02:00:53 2003
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	I wrote:

> Ned writes (on the Foundation list)...

	Oops, sorry, that was Doug.


-C

--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
[email protected]
www.netjam.org/resume
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
From [email protected] Fri Feb 28 03:45:56 2003
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I second Craig - let's release.

As I've said before, when thinking about adding any sort of fix at this
point we need to weight the real cost of adding it (including risks that
the bug fix is imperfect, or reveals another bug, or..) to the real cost
of not adding it (remember we can back port a bug fix to a finalized
version, after the change has been tested to death in the new
development version, if we get complaints about it).

In this specific case, IIUC, the analysis is like this -
1. Not that many newbies try to reshape ClassDescription.
2. Archive viewer bug fix gets auto-installed by SARInstaller (which,
btw, has it's own problems).

Therefore, release without it, patch later iff needed.

Daniel

Craig Latta <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 	Colin writes:
> 
> > I think it would be worth delaying the release of 3.4 to include this 
> > fix. Having easy-to-install packages for Traits and Islands would be 
> > very beneficial. The more people can play around with and exercise
> > that code, the better.
> 
> 	I don't think that's a convincing rationale for inclusion in 3.4. The
> 3.4 release is a vehicle for SqueakMap. I think only problems which have
> a catastrophic effect on a newcomer's ability to use SqueakMap should
> delay 3.4.
> 
> 	Ned writes (on the Foundation list):
> 
> > ...since Andreas just posted the ClassBuilder fix, I'm thinking that
> > may be worth including and postponing the release by a few days for
> > people to test.
> 
> 	Why? (And I don't use question marks lightly in this message, since I
> know they could cause more delay. :)
> 
> > Since I'm doing that, I could also perhaps include Ned's recent
> > ArchiveViewer fix, since I've looked at that and its seems
> > straightforward and is a somewhat important fix.
> 
> 	(:
> 
> 	I don't think "somewhat important" cuts it at this release stage.
> Instead, I think it's better to weigh the results of leaving something
> out, rather than of including it.
> 
> 	My recollection of our group discussions at OOPSLA, in November 2002,
> were that we would take 3.2, add SqueakMap support to it, and release it
> as 3.4. It is now February 2003. This surprises me, even given our
> history. :)
> 
> 	I think we should release 3.4 now, and defer all outstanding available
> fixes into the 3.5a stream (subject to harvester approval). In our
> current situation, I think anyone likely to encounter the bugs described
> recently will be able to get them easily from the update stream. In the
> meantime, newcomers will have easier access to SqueakMap sooner. I think
> it's time to release.
> 
> 
> 	thanks,
> 
> -C
> 
> --
> Craig Latta
> improvisational musical informaticist
> [email protected]
> www.netjam.org/resume
> Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakfoundation mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeakfoundation
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Okay, I'm very easily talked out of delaying the 3.4 release any 
further :-) (and was having second thoughts after posting that last 
message), so I agree with the prevailing opinion to leave this change 
out and go ahead with the release.

The Traits and Islands packages for 3.4 can include Andreas' fix as 
part of their install, which shouldn't significantly hinder people from 
exercising that code... those packages are both pretty experimental 
anyway.

- Doug Way


On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 08:59 PM, Craig Latta wrote:

> 	Colin writes:
>
>> I think it would be worth delaying the release of 3.4 to include this
>> fix. Having easy-to-install packages for Traits and Islands would be
>> very beneficial. The more people can play around with and exercise
>> that code, the better.
>
> 	I don't think that's a convincing rationale for inclusion in 3.4. The
> 3.4 release is a vehicle for SqueakMap. I think only problems which 
> have
> a catastrophic effect on a newcomer's ability to use SqueakMap should
> delay 3.4.
>
> 	Doug writes (on the Foundation list):
>
>> ...since Andreas just posted the ClassBuilder fix, I'm thinking that
>> may be worth including and postponing the release by a few days for
>> people to test.
>
> 	Why? (And I don't use question marks lightly in this message, since I
> know they could cause more delay. :)
>
>> Since I'm doing that, I could also perhaps include Ned's recent
>> ArchiveViewer fix, since I've looked at that and its seems
>> straightforward and is a somewhat important fix.
>
> 	(:
>
> 	I don't think "somewhat important" cuts it at this release stage.
> Instead, I think it's better to weigh the results of leaving something
> out, rather than of including it.
>
> 	My recollection of our group discussions at OOPSLA, in November 2002,
> were that we would take 3.2, add SqueakMap support to it, and release 
> it
> as 3.4. It is now February 2003. This surprises me, even given our
> history. :)
>
> 	I think we should release 3.4 now, and defer all outstanding available
> fixes into the 3.5a stream (subject to harvester approval). In our
> current situation, I think anyone likely to encounter the bugs 
> described
> recently will be able to get them easily from the update stream. In the
> meantime, newcomers will have easier access to SqueakMap sooner. I 
> think
> it's time to release.
>
>
> 	thanks,
>
> -C
>
> --
> Craig Latta
> improvisational musical informaticist
> [email protected]
> www.netjam.org/resume
> Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakfoundation mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/listinfo/squeakfoundation
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